Topic: Lord Varahadeva’s Appearance Anniversary
Verse: SB 3.18.2
Speaker: HH Bhakti Sundar Goswami
dadarsa tatrabhijitam dhara-dharam pronniyamanavanim agra-damstraya musnantam aksna sva-ruco ‘runa-sriya jahasa caho vana-gocaro mrgah
TRANSLATION: He saw there the all-powerful Personality of Godhead in His boar incarnation, bearing the earth upward on the ends of His tusks and robbing him of his splendor with His reddish eyes. The demon laughed: Oh, an amphibious beast!
PURPORT: In a previous chapter we have discussed the incarnation of the Supreme Personality of Godhead as Varaha, the boar. While Varaha, with His tusks, engaged in uplifting the submerged earth from the depths of the waters, this great demon Hiranyaksa met Him and challenged Him, calling Him a beast. Demons cannot understand the incarnations of the Lord; they think that His incarnations as a fish or boar or tortoise are big beasts only. They misunderstand the body of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, even in His human form, and they deride His descent. In the Caitanya-sampradaya there is sometimes a demoniac misconception about the descent of Nityananda Prabhu. Nityananda Prabhu’s body is spiritual, but demoniac persons consider the body of the Supreme Personality to be material, just like ours. Avajananti mam mudhah: [Bg. 9.11] persons who have no intelligence deride the transcendental form of the Lord as material. [End of Srila Prabhupada’s purport to SB 3.18.3]
HH Bhakti Sundar Goswami: So this wonderful pastime of Lord Varaha as you know from Brahma-samhita,
ramadi-murtisu kala-niyamena tisthan nanavataram akarod bhuvanesu kintu krsnah svayam samabhavat paramah puman yo govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami [Bs 5.39]
So the Lord starting from Rama. There are three Rama’s of course: Balarama is one Rama and then Parasurama and Dasaratha-putra. So the Lord takes different forms for His own pleasure. Rama means also pleasure. There is pleasure in performing this wonderful pastime. As Vedanta-sutra says, Ananda-mayo ‘bhyasat (Vedanta-sutra 1.1.12). The Lord is full of ananda, full of bliss. So He enjoys as a boar.
That also shows us that the Lord has a great sense of humor by appearing in such a way to confuse the materialistic atheists. They can’t understand how God can assume that type of form. That is beyond their imagination or material conception. But just to defeat misconception about Himself, He can do anything and everything. He appeared as an animal.
Even this demon Hiranyaksa he thought, “Oh, an amphibious beast!” laughing at the Lord! They think that when the Lord accepts this type of form it is just a big act. That is all! That is their foolishness of course.
We know that this demon Hiranyaksa, him and his brother Hiranyakasipu were the first demons appearing after creation. When the four Kumaras went to visit Vaikuntha they were not allowed to enter so they cursed them. And the Lord of course being compassionate to His servants so He came. The Kumaras wanted to take back their curse so He said, “No. You are great sages so your words must come true. But I offer My servants either to come back to me after three births as demons or asuras or after seven births as devotees. They can choose.”
He gave them the chance to choose what they wanted. The Lord is very kind to always offer the chance to choose freely what they wanted, either to serve Him as asuras or as devotees. One may think why they chose to be demons instead of devotees after seven births. It is better to be a devotee than demon. Isn’t it? So why they chose those births? Because they are very intelligent! They consulted with each other before making the decision. “Why the Lord is offering us to return faster to him as asuras than devotees, why?” They analyzed, “Maybe the Lord wants to fight demons right now at the beginning of creation. So let us please the Lord by becoming demons.”
So they told the Lord, “My dear Lord please give us very demoniac mentality so that we can give You very good fights. To please You.” [Laughter for audience.] That is the whole idea, devotee’s idea. Even if the Lord wants me to be a demon and kill me, if that pleases Him let that be. That is highly advanced. That means full surrender to the Lord just to please Him. The Lord also has this fighting spirit. Otherwise why is it in us, this fighting spirit?
Even as devotees sometimes we fight each other. From where does this come? This is coming from the Lord originally. Everything is coming originally from the Lord. But the Lord uses fighting spirit, His anger only to protect His devotees – not otherwise. So Mother earth, Bhumidevi was in danger and the Lord came to rescue her and fight the demon. He displays his fighting spirit to uplift His devotees.
There is one story in relation to that. In Iran at the time of the Shah (He was the king before.) He went to his people for diplomatic relationships and the government wanted to please him, to have diplomatic political relationship with him so they took him on tour to different museums, different palaces and places. So they went to one museum and in one part of that museum he saw an artifact called guillotine. So he asked what this was for. They said this was for chopping the criminal’s hands. [Laughter from audience.]
He became very interested in it and said, “Oh. I would like to see how it works practically.” They said, “Oh no problem. You can give one of your men and I can ask one of my men to put his head there to be chopped off!” He was very . They said, “No, no, no. The English do not allow that. It is a place for … They cannot go that far to please you. Please forgive us.” He said, ‘then you don’t understand what the meaning of king is. You don’t understand! The servant is willing to sacrifice his life to please even his whimsical desire.
In relation to Krishna lila the devotees are willing to give up their lives to please the Lord. That means full surrender, atmanivedana, willingly! “Yes my Lord, You want me to become a demon and kill me, please do so. Be pleased!” That is difficult for general people to understand. In devotional service this is the goal – to become fully surrendered to the Lord and try to please the Lord in any way that the Lord wants. Isn’t it?
With Hiranyaksa the story is that he stole the earth and sunk it in the Garbhodaka Ocean. And Prabhupada says he was perplexed what to do. He, himself did not feel it. Imagine the Garbhodaka Ocean is filling up half of the universe. Imagine how deep it is. Very, very deep! Not even Lord Brahma could do that difficult task. So he was thinking and praying to the Lord for His help.
Suddenly from his nostrils this tiny boar appeared. He was wondering, “What is this?” And the boar started to grow up and grow up. So huge! Then he realized this must be an incarnation of the Lord because how it can become so huge in one moment! So he started to offer prayers. All the sages were offering prayers and the Lord answered their prayers.
He roared with great force assuring them he will be victorious. So the Lord jumped in the ocean creating huge waves that touched even the heavenly planets. Some of the hairs on the Lord’s body fell in different places and that became the kusha grass. That is why the kusha grass is so holy. They use that in all yajnas because this comes from the hair of Lord Varaha.
So in this fight between Lord Varaha and Hiranyaksa, the Lord was holding Bhumidevi in his tusks at the same time. It was like the moon on the tusks of the Lord. It was very beautiful to see. Imagine just seeing this beautiful form of the Lord. Imagine how big the Lord was that the earth planet was just resting on His tusks. Gigantic! Much bigger than the earth planet itself! So it is wonderful.
The fight was going on. First the Lord took the earth from the floor of the ocean before starting to fight to assure that the earth is in a safe position before fighting the demon. The Devas came to witness the fight. Hiranyaksa actually, Hiranyakasipu shared with his brother the blessing he got from Brahma. So he was very, very powerful. First he went to challenge Varuna for a fight. And Varuna said, “I am very old now for fighting. I have retired from this. Since you are very eager you go and fight Lord Varaha and he will kill foolish demons like you.” Varuna predicted the outcome of the fight but still the foolish demon laughed and challenged the Lord. ‘I will kill Him.” That is their idea.
So in the same way Srila Prabhupada he went into the ocean of Kali-yuga and uplifted us from the depth of Kali-yuga’s ocean. He fought all the impersonalist, mayavadis, sahajiyas, and materialistic scientists. He fought so many demoniac people just to uplift us and pick us up to the platform of Krishna consciousness. So that is the role of guru in Iskcon, to uplift and to help others to come up and to be fixed in Krishna consciousness with the selfless attitude to help others, to be a servant of the servant of the servant. That is the humble attitude for everybody, not just the guru.
In this wonderful fight The Lord came out victorious. Some details are here in the Srimad-Bhagavatam how the fight was. First they started with mace. Big fight! Very powerful! It is said that at a certain moment in the fight the Lord’s gada fell from His hand and all the demigods were very frightened, but the demon being a very big demon he then took advantage of that. The Lord called for His Sudarsan Cakra. And this demon he took up again the mace, gada and was fighting the Lord.
He was defeated so many times that he created an illusion of rain of urine and stool and bones and so many horrible things. And the Lord in one moment with Sudarsan Cakra He dispelled all this magical illusion created by the demon. Finally he left his mace and with his own hand he struck the Lord very powerfully and with the strength that he could smash huge mountains the Lord wasn’t moved at all.
Then the Lord without much effort just slapped him underneath his left ear and his eyeball came out. He died instantly. Jiva Goswami explained that the Lord after striking Hiranyaksa with His tusks He pierced him on his chest. So many wonderful details are there about this Varaha-lila and so many lessons are there to be learnt.
We also hear that after killing Hiranyaksa the Lord married Bhumi-devi. They became wife and husband. There are deities of Bhu-Varaha. Even Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saravati Thakur established Bhu-Varaha here in Mayapur. There is a deity at Lord Caitanya’s birthplace of Lord Varaha and Bhumi-devi.
So this pastime is very, very important. It is explained that They had a son together and Lord Varaha instructed the son in religious principles and saintly behavior and he was very saintly. But later on he started to have bad association. He started to associate with Mayadanava and by this bad association he became polluted. He became an asura himself. Just see even the son of the Lord, just by bad association became a demon. What to speak of others! How very careful we should be about bad association.
Actually that is the first instruction Lord Caitanya gave to His followers when they asked Him. Asat-sanga-tyaga, — ei vaisnava-acara [Madhya 22.87] First thing is you give up bad association. So this is very, very important. So much so that later on he kidnapped sixteen thousand princesses. He became known as Bhaumasura. So the Lord then had to come and kill His own son to protect His devotees. Just see how neutral the Lord is that even if His own son becomes a demon and is harassing His devotees He is willing to kill Him. And even if the demon becomes devotee he will give him all protection.
In the ‘Nectar of Devotion’ it is explained that one demon was saying, “Actually I am not afraid of Krishna because even if He comes to kill me the only thing I have to do is to just surrendered at His lotus feet and he will give me all protection.’ So that is very intelligent asura!
Mayadanava was also very intelligent demon. When Agnideva was burning the forest he asked permission from the Lord, (He came as a Brahmin.) and the Lord gave him permission because He was having indigestion. They must have put too much ghee on the sacrifices! [Laughter.] Burn all the fire inside and regain His good digestion again. So while He was burning the forest this demon Mayadanava came out. Because he was a demon the Lord was ready to kill him with His Sudarsan Chakra but the demon being very intelligent, he just fell at Arjuna’s feet. He did not fall at the feet of the Lord, he fell at His friend Arjuna’s feet.
So the injunction is that if any surrendered soul comes and fall at your feet you have to give protection. That is the ksatriya dharma. So when Arjuna gave protection or assurance, the Lord immediately stopped taking aim. Very intelligent! They know that, “The devotees are very dear to the Lord and if I take shelter of them I will be spared.” That is very intelligent. The asuras are also assisting the Lord with His pastimes. By taking opposition they are in one way helping the Lord to perform His pastimes and become purified by His wrath.
So they are born also in Krishna lila. Of course we don’t advise anyone to help the Lord in that way but in a favorable way. [Laughter.] Kamsa himself although thinking of the Lord twenty-four hours was still not considered a devotee because he was thinking of the Lord in an inimical way, as an enemy. So he wasn’t performing devotional service because devotional service has to be krsna-anusilanam, favorable to Krishna, to please Krishna. Then it is accepted as devotional service. Otherwise it is not accepted as such.
The need to perform devotional service is most important. Krishna is known as – bhava-grahi janardana. If somebody approaches to serve Him, he knows of their intention, their attitude. And that is the most important thing actually. Prabhupada explained in the ‘Nectar of Devotion’ that not just the service itself but the attitude is most important.
There is one story in Vrindavan: The pujari in the Radha-Govindaji Temple came out to look for some food to offer to the Lord. He did not have. And one beggar arrived. He was going to sell moori. Moori is puffed rice. So he asked him, “Please give me some to offer to the Lord.” The man was a little stingy, “after some time if I sell something I may give you.” “No the offering is now. Please give. Don’t worry. Krishna will.” “No I am very poor and have five sons.” He started giving excuses. Suddenly a strong wind came and blew all his puffed rice away. So he was shouting, ” .Govinda.” The Lord will not accept such an offering by force. No. The Lord wants it naturally. Not by force of circumstance.
So we do service, “Oh I have to do this.”The Lord is in the heart. He is seeing the heart. It is very important to work hard and always have the proper attitude in devotional service. What is the proper attitude? To please Guru and Gauranga, to please Krishna. This is the most important. Everything we do should be with that aim. There should not be any personal ambition. Prabhupada said personal ambition can create so much havoc in our movement. And it has created. I have seen. So we have to be very careful of that. Our only ambition should be to always keep devotee association and humbly serve the mission of Srila Prabhupada with a mood of surrender and try to please others, help others to be more and more enthusiastic in Krishna consciousness.
Each and every one of us has this duty to be an instrument in the Lord’s service, to help inspire others by our own example, by our own behavior, by our intelligence, our speech, money, in which ever way. Lord Caitanya said one should engage in the loving service of the Lord and that is the most important thing. We have to work on this very, very sincerely. Prabhupada said that the most important thing is to be sincere. And that can be lost also. We have seen devotees are very sincere and after some time they stop being sincere. So if we are not careful and always endeavoring with confidence with enthusiasm and patience – Srila Rupa Goswami advised that.
When Srila Prabhupada visited our temple in South America, Venezuela he said utsahan, enthusiasm is very important. Utsahan, enthusiasm means, “I must see Krishna in this very life.” Prabhupada said, “You are already seeing Krishna.” Krishna and his form are non different but still personally it is possible. You have to keep the enthusiasm. Enthusiasm should always be there in your daily activities. As soon as we begin to lose enthusiasm we should immediately try to do something about trying to find good association or one advanced devotee to help us to overcome this obstacle.
So many obstacles will come in our way of spiritual advancement. That is maya’s duty to keep us here in this material world. Of course we know that maya is also a pure devotee. That is her duty. She doesn’t want but that is her duty to the Lord, to test to see whether people are sincere in their desire to serve the Lord. So it is very, very important to always pray to the Lord to always be sincere and surrender to his desires and to give up our own worldly desires in order to fulfill the Lord’s desire.
The material desires we have now are not only our desires because these desires come from the mind and the senses but since we are not the body, we are spirit soul our real desire is the desire of the Lord. And what are the desires of the Lord? To see all of us very happy eternally in His association in service. So that is the Lord’s mission.
He comes in different forms so that he can create varieties of pastimes so that we can come together and sing about His glories, speak about His lilas to His devotees. So there is a wonderful opportunity that the Lord is giving us and we should take full advantage of it. In the wonderful dham, Sridham Mayapur it is natural that devotees are chanting the holy names. Wherever we go around they naturally chant the holy name of the Lord. That is the power of the holy dham that it raises every body’s consciousness to the platform of bhakti, pure devotional service.
That is why Prabhupada wanted devotees to come at least once a year to the holy dham to recharge their batteries and become more enthusiastic in preaching these glories all over the world. So that is the mission, Prabhupada’s mission, Lord Caitanya’s mission and that is the mission we should all have in our lives – to assist Srila Prabhupada and his pure representatives in spreading the glories to the Lord. And for that we ourselves have to become fixed in this transcendental knowledge with full conviction that, “Yes. I am an eternal servant of Krishna. That is my eternal identity.” And we should remind others about their identity also in life.
Then everything is smooth and nice. The Lord’s ananda is always increasing and you want to share this ananda with all living entities. That is why there are so many living entities to increase His ananda by exchanging loving dealings, loving service. So that is the whole idea of this Krishna conscious movement. If I have forgotten something please remind me about the pastimes of the Lord. I will much appreciate it. If anybody has any comments or questions please feel free to ask.
Prabhu: Hare Krishna. You said that Varahadeva picked Bhumi from the Garbodaksa Ocean at that time you mentioned the fight took place. So my question is how we can understand because Varadev appeared in, according to Srimad Bhagavatam when Manu appeared from.. by the union of man and woman. That time Manu asked, “Where should I create from/” That time he said that Bhumi is in the Garbodaksayi Ocean and Varahadeva appeared. But we see Hiranyaksa and Hiranyakasipu alreadt there. And there were so many . already there. It was on earth also. So how we can understand that this two are different.
HH Bhakti Sundar Goswami: Tough one! [Laughter.] One saying that we as devotees are very clever. Every time there is something we don’t understand we say acintya, acintya, acintya! [Laughter] Now the thing is this earth planet was not there in creation yet but in all the other planets creation was there. Kadarma Muni was there. Diti was there. All the pastimes were there. Maybe this planet that was at the bottom of the ocean, maybe there was no creation there but in the other planets creation was there. That is how Maharaj Uttanapada became the father of Dhruva Maharaj. Unless Kardama was there and Devahuti was there how Hirayaksa and Hiranyakasipu were born.
Although some devotees say that there are two Varahas – one white Varaha and one reddish Varaha. They appeared in different millenniums but some other commentators say that varaha after killing Hiranyaksa remained inside the ocean until the next millennium and came out again. Some believe that he was in the water for so long. Anything is possible. For the Lord nothing is impossible. So we have to study from different angles of vision. Different possibilities are there also for the Lord’s appearance and pastimes. Is that okay? Hare Krishna. Any other questions or comments? Yes?
Prabhu: How did Lord Varaha leave the material world?
HH Bhakti Sundar Goswami: he appeared from the nostrils of Lord Brahma. That is the way he appeared.
Prabhu: How did he leave?
HH Bhakti Sundar Goswami: How He left? That is a very important question. Actually Srila Prabhupada said that the incarnations of the Lord as animals, as boar or Kurma or Matsya, They are only made for the material world only. They are not in Vaikuntha. Vaikuntha is a bit higher. So they are only meant for the material world. But that doesn’t mean that form is . is going on in all different universes but they are only meant for pastimes inside the material world only. Understand? Yes Mataji?
Mataji: When you were talking about the attitude that constitutes devotional service that we have to be favorable to the Lord but Jaya and Vijay consented to accept the curse and wanted to be demons because they considered that the Lord wanted to fight. So that attitude is favorable because they are doing what the lord wants?
HH Bhakti Sundar Goswami: Yes. Because that was that was the desire of the Lord. Favorable means whatever the Lord desires I am willing to do. “Even if He wants me to be an asura and kill me,” because they were so surrendered souls they agreed.
Mataji: So in the form as Hiranyaksa and Hiranyakasipu they don’t remember the Lord and their attitude is unfavorable or they remember the Lord and their attitude is favorable? In other words are they actually devotees?
HH Bhakti Sundar Goswami: No. No. actually in order for the pastime to be performed nicely they are demons. Yoga maya makes them forget that they are actually eternal devotees. Otherwise how can they fight the Lord? A devotee will never fight the Lord. Never! Of course there are a few exceptions. Jambavan fought with the Lord. He acknowledge that is the Lord but the Lord was pleased by his fighting spirit then he remained. So there are instances like that but in this particular case Hiranyaksa and Hiranyakasipu, they by the potency of yoga maya forgot that they were the door keepers of Vaikuntha. They forgot in order to give a good fight to the Lord. That was to please the Lord, not because they wanted to be demons. Just because the Lord wanted to fight. Is that okay? If there is anything else.
Mataji: It brings up other questions included in the sense that when they become demons the give as in the case of others like Prahlad when they give difficulties to others. So you really have to have a maha-bhagavat vision to see them as devotees serving the Lord. They are causing so much misery.
HH Bhakti Sundar Goswami: No we have to remember that is the pastimes of the Lord. He wanted them in that way. Prabhupada said only three births. Not that they come as demons. no, only that time it happened. Then that is it! Only to fulfill the Lord’s desire. . like Prahlad by being tested by these demons to become more glorious to bring more pleasure to glorify His devotee who is .to test by the demons. So the Lords glories increase in every body’s heart. Hare Krishna.
Prabhu: Hare Krishna. Thank you, Maharaj. For sake of variety and for the sake of the lila I would have thought that the Lord would be true to His nature He incarnates in all different kinds of animals in the creation. Why is it that it seems that the Lord appears again and again as Varaha, againand again as Kurma and then Matsya. Wouldn’t it seem theoretically boring after a while instead of doing something new in the creation? [Laughter.]
HH Bhakti Sundar Goswami: hare Krishna. That is all material conception that, “Oh I heard this pastime. Tell me new one. That is boring to hear the same thing once again.” That is material misconception. The pastimes of the Lord are new and fresh and pure devotees relish them although repeating them again and again. They relish them because this is eternally going on. And the pastimes always have different varieties. It is not exactly the same every time. There are different variations there also.
Sanatana Goswami explains sometimes Krishna goes to Mathura riding on Kaliya instead of a chariot. So there are varieties of pastimes. Even the Lord’s appearance in different forms, in every appearance there are some varieties of pastimes. Also some details were not mentions in every book it maybe. In different Puranas we find different explanations of that. And the Lord appeared in that way not misconceptions sometimes devotees ay have that we hear that the Lord appeared in all species of life. It doesn’t mean that He appears as a cockroach! [Laughter.} No. the Lord appears in the main forms: As an aquatic as Matsya and Kurma; as a fish as Lord Matsya. Understand? Like that! As a bird who?
HH Bhakti Sundar Goswami: garuda is not Visnu tattva. He is a servant of the Lord. Hamsa avatara! Swan. So in different forms the Lord appeared. There are many species. As human being Lord Rama and Lord Krishna. Not all eight million. Not like that! Is that okay? So if we become pure devotees then we will relish all the Lords pastimes repeatedly.
The Lord in Goloka Vrindavan, pretty far out lila going on repeatedly. Not that it is so boring. They are doing the same thing. That is our material contamination that we can’t appreciate the Lord’s lila. We don’t know the bliss of repeating it once and again and again. Because we are still on the mental platform we see it in this way. We have to give up our mental speculation, mental conditioning and come to the spiritual platform then we will relish every time we say the same thing.
Prabhu: We should also remember that these are the Dasavataras. The most prominent ten incarnations. Antarupa – unlimited incarnations. They are not necessarily mentioned in Bhagavatam.
HH Bhakti Sundar Goswami: That is right. It is said that there are as many incarnations of the Lord as there are waves in the ocean. Just imagine who can count the waves. So there are innumerable incarnations, unlimited pastimes the Lord was performing in so many different incarnations all over the universe. And there are millions of universes.
Prabhu: And if he pleases he may come as a cockroach.
HH Bhakti Sundar Goswami: If He wants to. He can do anything and everything.
Prabhu: You say He can do/
HH Bhakti Sundar Goswami: Well generally we do not know. Who knows.
Prabhu: We may not know.
HH Bhakti Sundar Goswami: Yes that is true. But we don’t want to think that the Lord would take such a form.
Prabhu; Who would say he would come as a boar? Prabhupada said it is ugly.
HH Bhakti Sundar Goswami: Yes, yes. Why the Lord came as a boar actually? Because the boar has the ability to take the earth. So He has to go in the Garba Ocean to take out the earth. It is only in a great sense of fury that He has to assume this form. He is very playful actually – the Lord!
Prabhu; Actually Prabhupada mentioned that Lord Boar had lotus eyes. He is very beautiful actually.
HH Bhakti Sundar Goswami: Yes. He is very beautiful.
Prabhu: Another thing – you mentioned that Lord Boar only has pastimes in the material world?
HH Bhakti Sundar Goswami: Yes.
Prabhu: but there is a statement in the Bhagavatam that after he killed Hiranyaksa He went back to the spiritual world, to His own abode where there was a constant tussle.
HH Bhakti Sundar Goswami: Yes.
Prabhu: And ha also mentioned that there are many incarnations of God that have their own abode in the spiritual world.
HH Bhakti Sundar Goswami: Yes, but They have the form of Narayana. That is what Prabhupada explained in a letter to one devotee – that Narayan comes to this material world in different incarnations but when he goes back He is Narayana. He is not there as a Boar. He takes the form of Narayana again. So there is no contradiction there because the Lord is one but he takes different forms. He has His own planet from that particular form he came as such.
Prabhu: Maharaj, with folded hands I ask which acarya’s commentary are you quoting when you say He accepts every species.
HH Bhakti Sundar Goswami: Oh Prabhupada said in the Bhagavatam that the Lord appeared in all the species of life. He has mentioned that amongst the aquatic He is Matsya avatara, like that he is mentioning in all the species of life one species in particular He is appearing in that form. He never said you don’t find Prabhupada saying that He appears in the eight million in every one of them as an avatara. So I can openly say that I came to that conclusion by studying Prabhupada’s books. I may be wrong but if you find a quote that supports otherwise please show me. I would be powerless.
Prabhu: . Prahlad Maharaj that He does appear in all species.
HH Bhakti Sundar Goswami: That is the meaning that He appears in all particular animal and aquatics. It doesn’t mean that every form of aquatics.
Prabhu: If I am not mistaken the Brhat-Bhagavatamrta describes how all the different animal forms are there in the spiritual world. Because they worship that form of the Lord in the material world they take that form, the form of the Lord they worship. Hence they have all the varieties of animals there.
HH Bhakti Sundar Goswami: Well varieties of forms of animals are need in the spiritual world. Once a devotee asked Prabhupada, “Prabhupada why in the spiritual world in Goloka there are animals and trees and plants.” Prabhupada said, “What do you want, that Krishna dances with Radharani and the gopis with the Brahmajyoti behind and no scenery behind? So Krishna loves variety and for that variety to be there it means even devotees have these different forms. They are not ordinary animals. They are eternally liberated souls and they serve the Lord in that way.
The bees recite Sanskrit verses when they fly near the Lord, humming they recite all this. And all of them are conscious. Pure Krishna conscious living entities assume that form for variety for the Lord’s pleasure. It doesn’t mean that those particular forms of the Lord are there, these devotees have to be incarnations of the Lord in that way.
Prabhu: That is why I am sharing. Sanatan Goswami does say that they do worship that form of the Lord,
HH Bhakti Sundar Goswami: and that is why they have that form there. But we also have to understand those devotees are nitya-siddhas. Most of them have that form eternally usually. Some devotee may get liberated and assume that form. That is possible. Sanatan Goswami says that possibility is also there. I agree. Whatever the previous acaryas and the scriptures say we accept. Definitely! Of course those who are in santa rasa they may also take a form like that to serve the Lord in that particular way. From different angle of vision we can analyze and study the sastras and the previous acaryas. We will come to the same conclusion. I hope so. [Laughs.]
Prabhu: Please I wanted to know one or two incarnations of actual demons and . when do they come and what are their names .
HH Bhakti Sundar Goswami: Can you repeat the question more clearly?
Prabhu: When they came as Hiranyaksa and Hiranyakasipu and the fourth incarnations as demons?
HH Bhakti Sundar Goswami: Yes, they were the first demons in the material world.
Prabhu: they were cursed to take birth as demons three times. What demons did they come as?
HH Bhakti Sundar Goswami: They became after Hiranyaksa and Hiranyakasipu they became Ravana and Kumbakarna and the last time as Sisupala and Dantavakra. But still by the Lord’s mercy because He was pleased with them they came and extra pastime in Gauranga lila as Jagai and Madhai. They were not killed. They were delivered. They were given Krishna prema because of their wonderful service as demons for three lifetimes. They pleased the Lord so much he gave them participation in Gauranga lila. They achieved prem bhakti. Lord Caitanya is so kind and merciful.
I was thinking about what you said about Sanatan Goswami explaining but if you read the sastra we don’t find an incarnation of the Lord as we know in this universe from our Bhagavata Puranas the Lord appearing as any other form as a bee or a monkey. We don’t know. It could be but the revelation is not given in our sastra. So how are the devotees going to find out about any other forms if it is not there in the sastras. Maybe in other planets the Bhagavatam is bigger more information is given there. Maybe! But atleast in this planet we don’t have more information about other forms of the Lord but what is already given to us.
So in understanding the philosophy of Krishna consciousness we also have to apply our common sense. Logic we can uses to understand the pastimes of the Lord. Is that okay? No? [Laughter.] Okay we agree to disagree. [Laughter.] Haribol.
Prabhu: Hare Krishna Maharaj. A similar statement is there in . canto. There is a sloka [Sanskrit] this is the prayer of I think Prahlad Maharaj. I don’t remember. He says whatever form a devotee meditates on the Lord appears in that particular form. And Srila Prabhupada says over there that it doesn’t mean whatever form the person is meditating Krishna will appear. He has to meditate on the form as mentioned in the scriptures.
HH Bhakti Sundar Goswami: Right! So according to what is there described in the scripture that settles our . The Lord appeared . but I am still going to meditate like that. That is more or less mental speculation. It may be true but it is not sure. It is not mentioned in sastra, we should not just make it up. So our basis is sastra, sadhu and guru. And if it is confirmed in the sastra – we can’t just make up our own meditation of different forms of the Lord. I am not saying that you are wrong. Thank you for quoting that.
Prabhu: Due to Prahlad Maharaj also Hiranyakasipu was delivered back to the spiritual world..
HH Bhakti Sundar Goswami: Yes.
Prabhu: Secondly why there are few devotee who worship them?
HH Bhakti Sundar Goswami: Who? Hiranyaksa and Hiranyakasipu? No ways! Some people in Sri Lanka still worship Ravana. But we don’t worship demons. We worship the Lord. [Laughter.] Hare Krishna. That is concoction also. We don’t worship demons. Only pure devotees!
Prabhu: [indistinct] None of them are not worshipping Ravan. They know that they are demons.
HH Bhakti Sundar Goswami: We burn the image of Ravana because he was acting as a demon. So we don’t like him. Although we understand they were Jaya and Vijaya but still we should not disturb the lila of the Lord acting in a different way. Like sahajiyas for example – the Gauranga nagaris, they want to worship Lord Caitanya as Krishna Himself. Once I went to Navadwip many years ago I saw in one temple – we are not calling them sahajiyas – and I saw Lord Caitanya’s deity with a flute in His hand. I said, “Why you doing this?” they said, “Oh! He is Krishna. He is dancing with the gopis also.”
He is Krishna but he has come as a devotee. We should not disturb this mood, this bhava. So that is very important. Even Prabhupada said that on Ekadasi we don’t offer grains to Lord Caitanya and Lord Nityananda. Why? Because They are playing the parts of devotees so we respect Their feelings, Their bhava. He is Krishna. Still we respect the feelings They have as devotees. Thank you very much. Srila Prabhupada Ki Jai. Grantharaj Srimad-Bhagavatam Ki jaya. Gaurapremanandi, Haribol!
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