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February 14, 1977, Māyāpura
Satsvarūpa: …thought they were suppressed.
Prabhupāda: Revolution means they are dissatisfied.
Satsvarūpa: French Revolution, Russian Revolution.
Prabhupāda: These things were not going nicely. Therefore gradually it broke. But if things are going nicely, people will be happy. They will not revolt. You have to keep the citizens satisfied in all respects. You must know the necessity how people are satisfied. You have to arrange the government in that way. Then there will be no revolution. Mass of people, if they are satisfied, they will not revolt. But they do not know the process. The “demoncracy,” the common man is allowed to vote. He has no knowledge and he’s voting. This is most condemned process. Camara–bhangi, a sweeper, he is voted to become Minister of Defense. His business is to cleanse the street, and now he’s voted to become because he has got number of votes. So many bhangis, they vote, “Yes, he is our leader. He should be Defense Minister.” You have to do that. This is democracy. His business is to sweep, and he’s voted a defense minister.
Hari–śauri: But in, say in America, they argue that everybody’s educated now. In America…
Prabhupāda: What educated? Educated means hippies. That’s all. This is their education. They do not know what is meant by education. Education… University student was informed that “Next birth you may become a dog,” so he said, “What is the wrong there?” This is education. Is that education, that he agrees to become a dog very happily? There is no education. Simply waste of time.
Satsvarūpa: But at least if there is extreme exploitation by a king or dictator it can’t be changed. But the people…
Prabhupāda: There cannot be exploitation if things are made in order. Just like kṣatriya should be trained up as kṣatriya. Then he is king. Not that a bhangi by vote becomes a king. This is education.
śauryaṁ tejo dhṛtir dākṣyaṁ
yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam
dānam īśvara-bhāvaś ca
kṣātraṁ karma svabhāva–jam
[Bg. 18.43]
He must be very powerful, very strong, strongly built. You have seen the picture, Rāmacandra? Sturdy body. You see. Lakṣmaṇa. Because kṣatriya. They should be trained up as kṣatriya. Therefore the varṇāśrama college is required to train people who is able to become a brāhmaṇa, who is able to become a kṣatriya, who is able to become… In this way division must be. And according to the quality and work there must be division for cooperation. There is a big scheme. They have lost. They do not know. All bhangis, camara, śūdras, they are simply given vote. That’s all. Where is the training?
Hari–śauri: But what is the use of having big strong body if now they’re using airplanes and tanks and guns.
Prabhupāda: That is your useless waste of time. Why? Therefore the war does not stop, unnecessary war, and such a big war, Kurukṣetra, in eighteen days it is finished. This is decision. And this is going on, continually war, strain, politics, diplomacy, lecture, Parliament. There is no finishing of war. There is no finishing. It will go on. Just like same example: If you keep the dogs as dogs, they’ll going on barking. It will never finish. So this is the civilization of dog work. It is not human civilization. Therefore it is going on. War is not stopped. Where is stop? War is stopped? No. Going on. And it will go on because they are dogs. You cannot stop their barking. There are so many things. If we follow the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā, then whole world will be… This is a fact. Now, how to implement it, that is another thing. It is a fact.
Hari–śauri: Because even the yavanas and mlecchas were following the kṣatriya system in Kṛṣṇa’s time. Just like Jarāsandha. He had all the chivalrous respect of a kṣatriya even though he was a demon. But nowadays everybody’s… No one is…
Prabhupāda: Everybody’s śūdra. Nobody’s brāhmaṇa, nobody’s…
Hari–śauri: No.
Prabhupāda: Śūdra is to be controlled only. They are never given to be freedom. Just like in America. The blacks were slaves. They were under control. And since you have given them equal rights they are disturbing, most disturbing, always creating a fearful situation, uncultured and drunkards. What training they have got? They have got equal right? That is best, to keep them under control as slaves but give them sufficient food, sufficient cloth, not more than that. Then they will be satisfied.
Hari–śauri: If that’s done then how will those who have some potential to be educated, how will we recognize them?
Prabhupāda: Either educate them or control them. Give them facility of education. But there is no education at all. Even for the whites there is no education. So we are stressing on the point of education. You educate certain section as brāhmaṇa, certain section as kṣatriya, certain section as vaiśya. In that education we don’t discriminate because he’s coming of a śūdra family. Take education. Be qualified. Then you talk. Not by votes.
Satsvarūpa: Lord Caitanya, when Rāmānanda Rāya brought this up He said it was not possible in this age to introduce this.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Not… He did not say possible. Ihā bāhya. Caitanya Mahāprabhu was interested only on the spiritual platform. He had no idea of material side. He rejected material side.
Satsvarūpa: But don’t we do that also?
Prabhupāda: No. Our position is different. We are trying to implement Kṛṣṇa consciousness in everything. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu personally took sannyāsa. He rejected completely material. Niṣkiñcana. But we are not going to be niṣkiñcana. We are trying to cement the troubled position of the… That is also in the prescription of Bhagavad-gītā. We are not rejecting the whole society. Caitanya Mahāprabhu rejected everything, ihā bāhya. Rejected meaning, “I do not take much interest in this.” Bāhya. “It is external.” He was simply interested in the internal, the spiritual. But our duty is that we shall arrange the external affairs also so nicely that one day they will come to the spiritual platform very easily, paving the way. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu, personality like that, they have nothing to do with this material world. But we are preaching. We are preaching. Therefore we must pave the situation in such a way that gradually they will be promoted to the spiritual plane, which is not required.
Satsvarūpa: Varṇāśrama is not required.
Prabhupāda: Not required. Caitanya Mahāprabhu denied, “I am not brāhmaṇa, I am not kṣatriya, I am not this, I am not this.” He rejected. But in the Bhagavad-gītā, the cātur–varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam [Bg. 4.13]. So we are Kṛṣṇa…, preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It must be done.
Hari–śauri: But in Caitanya Mahāprabhu’s practical preaching He only induced them to chant.
Prabhupāda: That is not possible for ordinary man.
Hari–śauri: What, to simply induce people to chant?
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Hari–śauri: He only introduced just the chanting.
Prabhupāda: But who will chant? Who’ll chant?
Satsvarūpa: But if they won’t chant, then neither will they train up in the varṇāśrama. That’s the easiest.
Prabhupāda: The chanting will be there, but you cannot expect that people will chant like Caitanya Mahāprabhu. They cannot even chant sixteen rounds. (And) these rascals are going to be Caitanya Mahāprabhu.
Satsvarūpa: No. But if they at least will chant and take some prasāda…
Prabhupāda: Chanting will go on. That is not stopped. But at the same time the varṇāśrama–dharma must be established to make the way easy.
Hari–śauri: Well, at least my own understanding was that the chanting was introduced in the age of Kali because varṇāśrama is not possible.
Prabhupāda: Because it will cleanse the mind. Chanting will not stop.
Hari–śauri: So therefore the chanting was introduced to replace all of the systems of varṇāśrama and like that.
Prabhupāda: Yes, it can replace, but who is going to replace it? The… People are not so advanced. If you imitate Haridāsa Ṭhākura to chant, it is not possible.
Satsvarūpa: We tell them go on with your job but chant also.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Thākaha āpanāra kāje, Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura. Āpanāra kāja ki. Caitanya Mahāprabhu recommended, sthāne sthitaḥ. And if they do not remain in the sthāna, then the sahajiyā’s chanting will come. Just like the sahajiyās also have got the beads and…, but they have got three dozen women. This kind of chanting will go on. Just like our (name withheld). He was not fit for sannyāsa but he was given sannyāsa. And five women he was attached, and he disclosed. Therefore varṇāśrama–dharma is required. Simply show-bottle will not do. So the varṇāśrama–dharma should be introduced all over the world, and…
Satsvarūpa: Introduced starting with ISKCON community?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriyas. There must be regular education.
Hari–śauri: But in our community, if the…, being as we’re training up as Vaiṣṇavas…
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hari–śauri: …then how will we be able to make divisions in our society?
Prabhupāda: Vaiṣṇava is not so easy. The varṇāśrama–dharma should be established to become a Vaiṣṇava. It is not so easy to become Vaiṣṇava.
Hari–śauri: No, it’s not a cheap thing.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore this should be made. Vaiṣṇava, to become Vaiṣṇava, is not so easy. If Vaiṣṇava, to become Vaiṣṇava is so easy, why so many fall down, fall down? It is not easy. The sannyāsa is for the highest qualified brāhmaṇa. And simply by dressing like a Vaiṣṇava, that is… fall down.
Hari–śauri: So the varṇāśrama system is like for the kaniṣṭhas, Kaniṣṭha–adhikārī.
Prabhupāda: Kaniṣṭha?
Hari–śauri: When one is only on the platform of neophyte.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Kaniṣṭha–adhikārī, yes.
Hari–śauri: Varṇāśrama system is beneficial.
Prabhupāda: Kaniṣṭha–adhikārī means he must be a brāhmaṇa. That is kaniṣṭha–adhikārī. The spiritual life, kaniṣṭha–adhikārī, means he must be a qualified brāhmaṇa. That is kaniṣṭha. What is esteemed as very high position in the material world, brāhmaṇa, that is kaniṣṭha–adhikārī.
arcāyām eva haraye
pūjāṁ yaḥ śraddhayehate
na tad–bhakteṣu cānyeṣu
sa bhaktaḥ prākṛtaḥ smṛtaḥ
The brāhmaṇa means from the material stage gradually he is elevated to the spiritual stage. And below the brāhmaṇa there is no question of Vaiṣṇava.
Hari–śauri: No question of?
Prabhupāda: Vaiṣṇavism.
śṛṇvatāṁ sva–kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ
puṇya–śravaṇa–kīrtanaḥ
hṛdy antaḥ-stho hy abhadrāṇi
vidhunoti suhṛt satām
[SB 1.2.17]
By becoming a brāhmaṇa, hearing, hearing, hearing… Or by hearing, hearing, hearing, he becomes a brāhmaṇa. The other qualities, śūdra quality, kṣatriya, vaiśya, means finished. So then next stage is, śṛṇvatāṁ sva–kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya–śravaṇa–kīrtanaḥ, hṛdy antaḥ… Naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu. By this process, hearing… Without becoming a brāhmaṇa nobody is interested to hear. Then, by hearing, naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu, then abhadra, means the base qualities, means ignorance and passion… These are the base qualities. So naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu. When these base qualities are finished almost, not complete, nityaṁ bhāgavata–sevayā, by hearing from Bhāgavata or by serving the spiritual master and Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement-
naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu
nityaṁ bhāgavata–sevayā
bhagavaty uttama–śloke
bhaktir bhavati naiṣṭhikī
[SB 1.2.18]
Then he becomes fixed up in devotional… This devotional service is the first-grade quality of sattva–guṇa.
naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu
nityaṁ bhāgavata–sevayā
bhagavaty uttama–śloke
bhaktir bhavati naiṣṭhikī
[SB 1.2.18]
Tadā rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ [SB 1.2.19]. When one is situated as a devotee, then this base quality, rajas-tamaḥ, ignorance and passion, the symptoms: kāma-lobhādayaś ca ye. Kāma, lusty desires, and greediness. Sex desire, strong sex desire or satisfy the senses, eating too much, lobha, greediness—these things go. Nityaṁ bhāgavata–sevayā bhagavaty uttama… When one is situated in devotional service, tadā rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ. These are rajas-tamo… These are the symptoms of rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ. Tadā rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ kāma-lobhādayaś ca ye, ceta etair anāviddham [SB 1.2.19]. The mind is no more disturbed with all these things. Sthitaṁ sattve prasīdati. Then he is to be understood… He’s in the sattva–guṇa. That is perfect brahminical life. Then he’ll be pleased. Prasīdati. In this way, gradual step… So it is very difficult to bring, introduce varṇāśrama, but at least there must be some idea. Just like in the university, nobody is going to study higher mathematics, higher English literature. Nobody goes even in your country. The classes are almost vacant. But still, the government does not close it. The expenditure is high, but there is no student, no income. Therefore the professors coming to us, “Give us some student.” You know that?
Satsvarūpa: Religion professors.
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, higher studies…
Satsvarūpa: Yes. “Send us some of your men.”
Prabhupāda: Nobody is interested with higher study. They want some technological understanding so that they can earn money. That’s all. This is only interest.
Satsvarūpa: In our ISKCON, one becomes a brāhmaṇa after a year. It’s not very hard. Everyone becomes a brāhmaṇa.
Prabhupāda: That is due to chanting. That lift very easily.
Hari–śauri: Where will we introduce the varṇāśrama system, then?
Prabhupāda: In our society, amongst our members.
Hari–śauri: But then if everybody’s being raised to the brahminical platform…
Prabhupāda: Not everybody. Why you are misunderstanding? Varṇāśrama, not everybody brāhmaṇa.
Hari–śauri: No, but in our society practically everyone is being raised to that platform. So then one might ask what is…
Prabhupāda: That is… Everybody is being raised, but they’re falling down.
Hari–śauri: So then we should make it more difficult to get…
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hari–śauri: …brahminical initiation. After four or five years.
Prabhupāda: Not necessary. You remain as a kṣatriya. You’ll be ha…
Hari–śauri: No need for even any brāhmaṇa initiation, then…
Prabhupāda: No, no.
Hari–śauri: …unless one is…
Prabhupāda: No, brāhmaṇa must be there. Why do you say, generalize?
Hari–śauri: Unless one is particularly…
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hari–śauri: …inclined.
Prabhupāda: Not that a śūdra man is by force become a brāhmaṇa. You cannot improve. That is not possible. But even if he remains a śūdra and does accordingly, he will get the same position as devotee. Sva–karmaṇā tam abhyarcya sam… [Bg. 18.46]. He’ll get the perfection. At the present moment the idea is: if one remains a śūdra, then he cannot get perfection. No. Even a śūdra can get perfection provided he does the work of a śūdra perfectly.
Hari–śauri: For Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Therefore why a śūdra artificially should be a brāhmaṇa? Let them, let him remain a śūdra, and if he follows strictly the rules and regulation of śūdra, he’ll also be as good as a brāhmaṇa. The same example: Just like head is as important as my leg. It is not that because it is leg, it is less important than my head. And if you ask the head, “Do the work of a leg,” it is impossible. And if you ask the leg to work as a brain, that is impossible. Let him remain brain, let him remain leg, and do your duty and you become perfect.
Satsvarūpa: Today you’ve been saying that the Vaiṣṇava is the highest, above the brāhmaṇa. But then we’ve also understood that everyone in ISKCON is a Vaiṣṇava.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Vaiṣṇava everyone, even if he’s not brāhmaṇa. Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya–kṛṣṇa–dāsa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. But you have to gradually bring him to that pure consciousness that “I am servant of Kṛṣṇa.” Here the bodily conception is going on, “I am American,” “I am Indian,” “I am this,” “I am that.”
Satsvarūpa: If in our society we say, “Śrīla Prabhupāda wants some to be śūdra…”
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. I don’t want. I want everyone to become Vaiṣṇava. But because he’s a śūdra, it is not possible to bring him immediately to the platform of brāhmaṇa, or Vaiṣṇava. Therefore falling down. Therefore system must be. But even if he remains a śūdra, he’s a Vaiṣṇava.
Hari–śauri: So we’d have to completely revise the whole system that we have now.
Prabhupāda: No. Whatever we have, that is all right. But we see by experience that they’re falling down. There must be systematic. Why falling down? Because he was not fit for the position, therefore he has fallen. Better remain in his position and become perfect. Why artificially bring them? There is no need. Kṛṣṇa says. Bring that Bhagavad-gītā. Sve sve karmaṇy abhirataḥ?
Hari–śauri:
sve sve karmaṇy abhirataḥ
saṁsiddhiṁ labhate naraḥ
sva–karma–nirataḥ siddhiṁ
yathā vindati tac chṛṇu
“By following his qualities of work, every man can become perfect. Now please hear from Me how this can be done.”
Prabhupāda: Yes. He is śūdra, clerk. He can… As a śūdra, he can get the perfection. Why he should artificially become a brāhmaṇa and sannyāsī and fall down? This has to be checked.
Hari–śauri: So that depends upon our men who are giving recommendations.
Prabhupāda: So that recommendation is not good. Bible is giving so many recommendation. He’s also not following them. (laughs)
Hari–śauri: Following them. So how will we implement? Right now we have… Every temple president can…
Prabhupāda: That is supposed. Where there is no tree, a castor seed tree is very big tree. That is going on.
Satsvarūpa: If there’s no tree?
Prabhupāda: You know castor seed tree, a plant? it does not grow.
Satsvarūpa: Small.
Prabhupāda: Small. So there is no banyan tree. It is taken—”Oh, it is very big.”
Hari–śauri: I don’t follow the analogy.
Satsvarūpa: In the complete absence of trees, then a small tree is considered big.
Hari–śauri: Oh. (laughs) Well, say, like here in Māyāpura now we have a situation…
Prabhupāda: No, no. Why? Why one should stress to become big tree? Here it is clearly said even if you are small tree, you can get perfection. So we should take that.
Hari–śauri: So in Māyāpura here now we have that situation, that so many…
Prabhupāda: Everywhere, wherever, Māyāpura or anywhere. Question is that here it is clearly said, sve sve karmaṇy abhirataḥ. Brāhmaṇa has his duty, kṣatriya has his duty, vaiśya has his duty, śūdra has his duty. And if he performs his duty nicely, then he also becomes perfect. So why artificially he should be called a brāhmaṇa? Let them do, according to śāstra, the work of śūdra, or vaiśya. He’ll get the perfect. Perfection is not checked. But why artificially he should be made a brāhmaṇa or he should be made a sannyāsī and fall down and become a ludicrous? That is the point. Better let him live in his position and become perfect. That’s good. That looks very nice. And that is possible. That is possible. Varṇāśramācāravatā puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān viṣṇur ārādhyate [Cc. Madhya 8.58]. Viṣṇu, Lord Viṣṇu, can be worshiped if you perfectly follow the rules and regulation of four varṇas and four āśramas. Here it is also said, sve sve karmaṇi. You work as a perfect brāhmaṇa or a perfect kṣatriya, perfect śūdra; you get perfection. The perfection is available in your natural life. Why should artificially you become unnatural and fall down and become ludicrous? Perfection is not checked.
Satsvarūpa: But in most of our temples, the duties are either Deity worship, brāhmaṇa…
Prabhupāda: Brāhmaṇas are available. Why you are bothering about this? Brāhmaṇas are also available, śūdras are also available. Why śūdra should be artificially become a brāhmaṇa?
Satsvarūpa: What will the śūdras do in the big city temple, in all the temples?
Prabhupāda: Why you are bringing our temples? I am talking of the principle.
Satsvarūpa: Oh.
Hari–śauri: The principle we follow. We’re just thinking how it can be implemented. You were saying that it should be started in our society.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is a very broad idea. Now we are speaking of some of them, training them. That is another thing. That is small scale.
Hari–śauri: The principle we’re following.
Prabhupāda: Yes. In the… For the big scale, this is the required. In big scale you cannot make all of them as brāhmaṇas or sannyāsīs. No. That is not possible. This is a small scale. How many percentage of people of the world we are controlling? Very insignificant. But if you want to make the whole human society perfect, then this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement should be introduced according to the Kṛṣṇa’s instruction, if you want to do it in a large scale for the benefit of the whole human society. Now we are picking up some of them, best. That is another thing. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu said para–upakāra. Why a certain section should be picked up? The whole mass of people will get the benefit of it. Then it is required, systematic. Sve sve karmaṇy abhirataḥ saṁsiddhiṁ labhate naraḥ. Para–upakāra means mass benefit, not there is certain section. Then we have to introduce this varṇāśrama–dharma. It must be done perfectly, and it is possible and people will be happy.
Satsvarūpa: It requires powerful influence in the society to…
Prabhupāda: Yes. If the leaders of the society, they agree. They are barking like dogs in the United Nation. They should take rightly the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā. Then everything will be all right. They’re simply barking like dogs. What benefit is there? What benefit people have derived from the United Nation? Nothing. So if they want actually world peace, world unity, they must take the formula given by Kṛṣṇa. That is our duty. Because we are preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness, so our duty is to convince that “You are uselessly wasting your time for unity, for benefit of the human… You take this. You’ll be happy.” We are safe. We have taken to Kṛṣṇa’s lotus feet shelter. There is no doubt. But… Just like Prahlāda Mahārāja. He said that “I am quite happy. I have no problem. But I am thinking of these rascals.” Tato vimūḍha–cetasa indriyārtha: “They have made the whole aim of life sense gratification.” Indriyārtha. “And for that purpose, a few years, they’re making huge arrangement, how we shall become happy?” And next life a dog. It is risky. So as Kṛṣṇa conscious men, we should try to save them. That is the duty. But this civilization as it is going on is very risky. They do not know how nature’s law is working, how he’s going to be a dog next life. He does not know. Mūḍho nābhijānāti. To save the mass people from falling down to the repetition of birth and death, that is welfare activity. To save them by Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we have to keep this ideal at least, varṇāśrama, that “Here is the position.”
Hari–śauri: At this time should we try to introduce it in our centers or not?
Prabhupāda: Always we shall try. Human society will be always there. We have to serve them, para–upakāra. We have to keep them in the right position.
Hari–śauri: I just remember two or three years ago there was a thing… A pamphlet came out about introducing the varṇāśrama system in the society, but actually nothing came of it.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That time was not right. Now you can do something.
Satsvarūpa: That was the beginning of emphasis on farms when Prabhupāda said that, when more and more farms start, the idea of the vaiśya. But nothing else happened.
Prabhupāda: Every business is important. Brāhmaṇa business is important, kṣatriya… Just like the body. Head is important; the arm is important; the belly is important. They must be kept in order. Just like I am in trouble because my belly is not working. Digesting power is not good. So in spite of brain, hand, and leg, I am diseased. If any part of the society remains diseased, the whole society will suffer. Therefore they must be maintained in correct order. You cannot say if there is some trouble in the leg, “Neglect the leg. Take care of the brain.” No. Brain will be taxed due to the pain in the leg. This is nature. Therefore everyone should be kept in order. Then things will go on. That is varṇāśrama. They do not know that. Sometimes they are giving stress… That communist is giving stress to the śūdra class, and the capitalist are giving to the belly class. And what about the head? What about the arms? And therefore topsy-turvied. Everything is disorder. There are two classes of men now-capitalist and communist. The communist is giving stress, “No. Simply the legs shall be taken care.” What is called? Proly?
Hari–śauri: Proletariat.
Prabhupāda: What is that proletariat?
Satsvarūpa: The laborers.
Prabhupāda: That’s all. These rascals are giving stress on the legs. And the capitalists, they are giving stress on production. And where is the kṣatriya and brāhmaṇa?
Hari–śauri: Well, they’re all giving stress to accumulation of weapons. They’re all giving stress to…
Prabhupāda: That is not kṣatriya’s business. That is… That is… No, that is described. Kṛṣṇa said… He arranged the battlefield, because the kṣatriyas, they became very powerful by individual military strength as it is now…
Hari–śauri: Accumulation.
Prabhupāda: Ha. So Kṛṣṇa arranged: “All right, you come together and finish yourselves.” So this arrangement will be done that all atomic bomb will come in warfield-one, next, third war, finished. All these, all these demons will be finished. That is not kṣatriya. This is demonic. Kṣatriyas’ business is to see that the four orders of life are maintained properly, not increasing military strength only, overburdened. Everyone is spending 75% of the revenue for military. Huh? Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām [Bg. 4.8]. So they are demons. Why so much money should be spent for military? They are not kṣatriyas. They are not kṣatriyas. They are demons. So demons… As soon as there will be number of demons increased, there will be war and finish all.
Hari–śauri: So at least if we successfully introduce the varṇāśrama system in our own society, then when all the demons finish themselves…
Prabhupāda: At least… At least… At least they will see, “This is the ideal.”
Hari–śauri: Yes. Then if there is a war after that, it will be all right.
Prabhupāda: At least ideal must be there. That we are doing.
Hari–śauri: This will more or less revolutionize the way we’re running our centers. If we introduce it, it will more or less revolutionize the way we’re running our centers.
Prabhupāda: Why? Why revolution?
Hari–śauri: Because right now our only emphasis is just to simply produce brāhmaṇas.
Prabhupāda: So why you are taking “we”? Why not others? This is kaniṣṭha–adhikārī. You are thinking of “we.” That is kaniṣṭha–adhikārī. It is not that “we.” Na tad–bhakteṣu cānyeṣu. You have to think for others also.
Satsvarūpa: But the people are not at our disposal to organize.
Hari–śauri: We are thinking of “we” because actually we only have our own society at the moment to organize.
Satsvarūpa: We cannot approach the masses to organize.
Hari–śauri: It can’t be implemented on such a big scale.
Prabhupāda: I do not follow what you say.
Satsvarūpa: Just like…
Prabhupāda: Ideal. We are giving the ideal.
Satsvarūpa: But no one’s listening and no one’s taking it up except a few…
Prabhupāda: But you take. You show them.
Hari–śauri: That’s why we say, “we.”
Prabhupāda: That “We said” means not we are going to take them, but we are simply giving the ideas. We are not going to be a śūdra. But to show the… Just like you play in a drama. You are playing the part of a king. You are not a king.
Hari–śauri: No.
Prabhupāda: So similarly, just to give them idea, we have to play like that.
Hari–śauri: Well, again, that’s…
Prabhupāda: Not necessarily that we are going to be śūdra. So that is it. That is the thing. We are servant of Kṛṣṇa. That’s all. And as servant of Kṛṣṇa, we have to execute the order of Kṛṣṇa.
Satsvarūpa: So we can ideally organize ourselves and then for the rest of the people all we can do is hope that they’ll follow it.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bhavānanda: Set the example.
Prabhupāda: Example. Just like Bhavānanda, when there was no commode here. He was taking my stool and urine. Does it mean he is a sweeper? He’s a sannyāsī Vaiṣṇava. Similarly, āpani ācari’ jīve śikhāilā. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, “I am not a sannyāsī.” But He took sannyāsa. Actually He is God, so what is the benefit of becoming a sannyāsī, for God? But He became that. [break] In order to serve the mass of people, to bring them to the ideal position, we should try to introduce this varṇāśrama, not that we are going to be candidates of varṇāśrama. It is not our business. But to teach them how the world will be in peaceful position we have to introduce. Now the days of wind will come from March.
Satsvarūpa: Winds begin?
Prabhupāda: And April this wind is…
Satsvarūpa: Winds begin now?
Bhavānanda: Yes. They’ll start to come from the south. Vaikuṇṭha breezes.
Prabhupāda: Now here is a very nice institution for the benefit of the whole society human.
Bhavānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in our preaching in Bengal, many times we come to villages and the people are very sincere. They say that “We have our village, but we need someone here to guide us.”
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bhavānanda: “If you could make one small little temple with Gaura–Nitāi and have someone here to tell us what to do…” They want to become Kṛṣṇa conscious.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Bhavānanda: But there’s no one there to guide them.
Prabhupāda: So you reply this, that “You come. I shall train you. You will guide. We are prepared to guide you, but it is not possible to, bring men outside to guide you. You come to us. I shall train you how to guide.” This is the reply. And that is wanted. This Bon Mahārāja failed. Why? He wanted… Guru Mahārāja wanted that you start one temple in London. But he was thinking of bringing, taking men from India. Actually he had no…. [break] That is the fact. Therefore he failed. Instead of serving Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī, he wanted to serve Vivekananda. To become like Vivekananda and “I shall be very much eulogized in my country, second Vivekananda.” That was his ambition. He never wished to defy Vivekananda and elevate Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He has introduced in his Oriental Institute, Gandhi philosophy, Vivekananda philosophy. Just see his position. He’s appreciating… We are simply condemning Gandhi philosophy, and he’s appreciating Gandhi. We are simply depreciating Vivekananda, and he’s introducing Vivekananda. This is his position. He cannot understand even that where is philosophy in Vivekananda and Gandhi? Gandhi is nationalist. Again problem with your finger. Twenty-four hours, finger problem or nose problem. That I am observing. No attention. So where is philosophy in Vivekananda or Gandhi? He was nationalist. Nationalist means dehātma-buddhi. Dehātma-buddhi means sa eva go-kharaḥ [SB 10.84.13], cows and asses. He worked throughout his whole life for Indian people. In Africa also, he wasted twenty years, and India, thirty years. Fifty years. He lived for seventy-eight years. So twenty-seven years was for his education or something like that and fifty years wasted. This is his position. And he’s a big man. Actually he wasted fifty years. Twenty years in Durban and thirty years in… He started in 1917, and svarāja was, independence was given to India in ’47. He had nothing… It is not due to him. It is that Subash Bose’s INA. So twenty years there, thirty years-fifty years he wasted of his life. And balance, twenty-seven, education, sex with wife and so on, so on. He was so sexually inclined, he has written in his biography that when his father was dying he was enjoying sex life with his wife. Just see how he was sexually inclined. He could not take the serious illness of his father. He’s going to die. He was enjoying his wife. We can… Just from one point we can understand. Everyone is sexual in young days. That is generally. But just see his position, that his father was going to die and he was enjoying sex.
Satsvarūpa: I read that. They called him, so he stopped having sex and went to the bedroom, but it was too late. His father was already dead. So he must have been actually having sex just at the moment his father died.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He has written. Not only that. Nowadays somebody has accused that even in his old age he was having sex with young girls. I do not know. But it is a fact, when he was coming in the meeting he would touch two young girls, granddaughter and granddaughter-in-law, and then come in the meeting. I have seen. One gentleman in our, the Mullick’s Thakur Badhi, when we were there. He was attorney. So when there was some function, so all neighboring men were invited. So he was also invited. He would come with at least three, four prostitutes. And he was old man, blind. Asutosh Bhan. He became very rich man by cunning lawyer. He was a lawyer. So he would take a credit that “When I go to a friend’s house to keep my invitation, I take some three, four prostitute and flatterer. Then…” And he’d be received very nicely. We have seen when, when we were boys, ten years, twelve years old. I have seen it. Formerly, in our father’s time, it was aristocratic to keep one prostitute and keep one garden also. Then he’ll get… So this man, dehātma-buddhi and sexually inclined, he is mahātmā. This is the standard of… Ramakrishna, he was worshiping goddess Kālī. It is condemned in the Bhagavad-gītā, kāmais tais tair hṛta–jñānāḥ prapadyante ‘nya-devatāḥ [Bg. 7.20], that “Anyone who is worshiping a demigod, he is lost of all sense.” So this man, by losing his all senses, worshiping a demigod, he became God. People do not take reference from Bhagavad-gītā, that “A demigod worshiper has no sense, and he has become God?” What kind of God? Senseless God? And God’s definition is aiśvaryasya samagrasya vīryasya yaśasaḥ śriyaḥ (Viṣṇu Purāṇa 6.5.47), jñāna. God means full in knowledge. And a man who has no sense, he has become God? From logic. Jñāna-vairāgyayaś caiva. God means he has got full knowledge. And this man is senseless and he has become God. Logic, how you can defy? And they’re accepting: “Ramakrishna is God.” How you defend it? I am giving this logic. Defend.
Satsvarūpa: I’ve given that argument, and people have said back, “Oh, he didn’t say he was God.” They say… He said that…
Prabhupāda: No, you are advertising, “Ramakrishna Avatara.” “Bhagavan Ramakrishna.” “Bhagavan Ramakrishna.” Everyone is God—then why you are after God? You remain. You are servant of your wife, your prostitute. Then you are also devotee because everyone is God. A prostitute-hunter is also devotee because he’s devoted to the prostitute and prostitute is God. Then why you search out another God? Hm? Everyone is God. Why you search out another God? Why you bring Ramakrishna God? Better remain satisfied with your prostitute, your dog. (pause-talking in background) That Dr. Sharma has given very good (indistinct)?
Satsvarūpa: Yes. Of all commentaries his is the best, including Rāmānuja and Madhva.
Bhavānanda:
ye yathā māṁ prapadyante
tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham
mama vartmānuvartante
manuṣyāḥ pārtha sarvaśaḥ
[Bg. 4.11]
“Everyone follows My path in all respects.” So even if I worship the demigods, I am worshiping ultimately Bhagavān. Kṛṣṇa says, “Everyone follows my path in all respects.”
Prabhupāda: That is not the meaning. The meaning is: “Everyone is searching after Me, but they, unless they come to Me, they will search one after another position.” What is the purport?
Bhavānanda: “Everyone is searching for Kṛṣṇa in different aspects of His manifestations. Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is partially realized in His impersonal brahmajyoti effulgence and as the all-pervading Supersoul dwelling within everything including the particles of atoms. But Kṛṣṇa is only fully realized by His pure devotees. Consequently Kṛṣṇa is the object of everyone’s realization and thus anyone and everyone is satisfied according to one’s desire to have him. In the transcendental…”
Prabhupāda: Brahman… Brahman is also Kṛṣṇa, and Paramātmā is also Kṛṣṇa. So if one is attached to Brahman, he’s also worshiping Kṛṣṇa. That is the meaning.
Satsvarūpa: Or even a demigod.
Prabhupāda: Demigod. Everyone is part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. But he’s searching after real Kṛṣṇa.
Bhavānanda: But what is the harm? Durgā, she is in charge of… She is Kṛṣṇa’s agent, so what is the harm in worshiping Durgā?
Prabhupāda: Harm means you remain with Durgā’s province. Yānti deva–vratā devān [Bg. 9.25]. You cannot expect to go to Kṛṣṇa’s place. You have to satisfy yourself and remain within this material world. This is Durgā’s place.
Bhavānanda: “Men in this world desire success in fruitive activities and therefore they worship the demigods. Quickly, of course, men get results from fruitive work in this world.”
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bhavānanda: So if I can become happy by worshiping Durgā in this material world…
Prabhupāda: But that… That is māyā. You’ll never be happy. You are thinking like that. Who is in the material world happy? Nobody’s happy. But because you are fool, you are thinking this is happiness.
Hari–śauri: He says the results are only temporary, anyway.
Prabhupāda: Temporary but it is miserable also. But you are eternal. Why you should be satisfied with temporary happiness? If you be satisfied, be satisfied. That is your business. But that is not real happiness. Why you should take repeated birth and death? If there is another life where there is no birth and death, why should you not take that? You are eternal. But because you are a fool, you think that “If I get ten thousand years of life and very comfortable life, that is happiness.” That is mistake. Kāmais tais tair hṛta–jñānāḥ [Bg. 7.20]. That is also said. Why don’t you refer to that…? “Such persons have lost that intelligence.”
Satsvarūpa: I’ve heard that Ramakrishna said that even if by mistake one worships the wrong Deity, God won’t hold that mistake against him. Even though he’s worshiping a demigod and he thinks that’s God, so that’s a mistake, but God is not so…
Prabhupāda: But the Ramakrishna rascal saying. Kṛṣṇa says, yānti deva–vratā devān [Bg. 9.25]. If you worship demigod, you go to the demigod. You can say…
Satsvarūpa: God Himself says.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. We have not to take the instruction of a man-made God. We have to take instruction of the real God.
Hari–śauri: The second half of that verse says that “As they surrender unto Me I reward accordingly,” So it’s not that everybody gets the same results.
Prabhupāda: Yes, accordingly, because nothing can happen without Kṛṣṇa’s desire. Even if you want some benefit from the demigods, that must be sanctioned by Kṛṣṇa. That is stated. Mayaiva vihitān hi tān. Find out. Ye ‘py anya–devatā. Ye ‘py anya–devatā–bhaktāḥ. [break]
Bhavānanda: They also say that everything… They accept everything as part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Everything is part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa and everyone has same qualities as Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: No, that is not the fact. That is rascaldom.
Bhavānanda: One drop of the ocean contains all the qualities of the big ocean, the chemical components…
Prabhupāda: Then all the qualities, not the quantity. Then how it can be equal?
Bhavānanda: But absolute means that a part is also equal to the whole.
Prabhupāda: Equal to the whole in quality, not in quantity.
Bhavānanda: Then in quantity means universal form.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
Bhavānanda: Not Kṛṣṇa. Not Kṛṣṇa but universal form.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is… Kṛṣṇa is bigger than the universal form. Kṛṣṇa assumed the universal form, not that universal form made Kṛṣṇa.
Bhavānanda: No, but everyone taken together makes Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa… Arjuna wanted to see His universal form; then Kṛṣṇa assumed. Then Kṛṣṇa is the origin of the universal form. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ… [Bg. 10.8]. Even universal form is coming from Kṛṣṇa. These rascals, they do not know.
Bhavānanda: Their philosophy is that everyone taken together forms Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: That is their philosophy, but everything taken together means that is a partial manifestation of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is still greater.
Bhavānanda: If Kṛṣṇa says that “Everything material and spiritual is coming from Me.”
Prabhupāda:“Coming from Me.” Therefore He is greater than both material…
Bhavānanda: Does that mean Kṛṣṇa is beyond even spiritual?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hari–śauri:
ye ‘py anya–devatā–bhaktā
yajante śraddhayānvitāḥ
te ‘pi mām eva kaunteya
yajanty avidhi–pūrvakam
Prabhupāda: Next verse.
Hari–śauri:
ahaṁ hi sarva–yajñānāṁ
bhoktā ca prabhur eva ca
na tu mām abhijānanti
tattvenātaś cyavanti te
“I am the only enjoyer and the only object of sacrifice. Those who do not recognize my true transcendental nature fall down.”
Prabhupāda: Hm. Next verse.
Hari–śauri:
yānti deva–vratā devān
pitṝn yānti pitṛ–vratāḥ
bhūtāni yānti bhūtejyā
yānti mad-yājino ‘pi mām
[Bg. 9.25]
Prabhupāda: There is discrimination, yānti mad-yājino mām, not that everyone. Another verse… Antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ tad bhavaty alpa…
Hari–śauri:
antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ
tad bhavaty alpa–medhasām
devān deva-yajo yānti
mad–bhaktā yānti mām api
[Bg. 7.23]
“Men of small intelligence worship the demigods, and their fruits are limited and temporary. Those who worship the demigods go to the planets of the demigods, but my devotees ultimately reach My supreme planet.”
Prabhupāda: That is the…
Bhavānanda: Then how yato mata tato patha, became so strong?
Prabhupāda: This is rascal. Therefore we say they are rascal. Path is one: mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja, and they have manufactured this, yato mata tato patha. Mata is one. Food has to be given to the mouth, not to the eyes. You can say, “Here is a hole, here is a hole. Here is a…” Anybody… No. This hole. There are nine holes all over the body. You cannot put food in either of them, only this one. You cannot water every part of the tree. Put water on the root, and everything is satisfied.
Bhavānanda: “I am not qualified to worship Kṛṣṇa, so let me just worship the Mother. She is part of Kṛṣṇa, so let me just worship her…”
Prabhupāda: You’ll get the path of yānti deva. You go to Mother and become a goat and be sacrificed. You cut throat of a goat now by satisfying Mother, and next life the goat will cut throat, yours. Go to mother. That’s all. If you like, you can go. And if you think that is good—by worshiping Mother, “I am getting daily nice goat flesh. Why shall I go to Kṛṣṇa?” That’s all right, but be prepared, that so many times you’ll be also cut, your head, and this goat will get chance to cut your head. Mother is witness. Mother is for the goat and for you also. So you are cutting the throat of the goat, so why the Mother will not give the chance to the goat to cut your head? Why do you think like that, rascal? “The Mother is kind to me and unkind to the goat?” That means naṣṭa–buddhi, lost intelligence. If you think Mother, then you must think that Mother of the goat also. Why Mother will tolerate? This is justice. Actually the mantra is there, that “Goat, you are sacrificing your life. You get immediately chance of human being.” That is his profit. He would have evolved himself in so many lives and then get a human life. But because he’s sacrificing his life before Mother, he gets immediately an lift to become a human man. And the human, because he becomes, he has got the right to cut the throat of the man who sacrificed him. This is the mantra. So if you take this risk, do that because how to become a goat, how to become a man, that is in the hands of Mother. That is not in your hand. So Mother, if she gives lift to the goat to become a man and if she degrades you to become a goat, that is in the Mother’s hand. You cannot check it. Prakṛteḥ kriyamā… Mother is just to everyone. “All right, this man is cutting your throat. You just become human being and cut his throat. I shall make him a goat.” How you can say, “No”? Can you say? And Mother is all-powerful. Then you take the risk. And why Mother will make injustice? The poor goat, you shall cut the throat, and you remain human being, Mother’s pet son? What is this logic? She is Mother means she is equal to every son. The goat is also her son; you are also her son. So you are taking advantage of this poor goat, and now he’ll get this advantage. You, you become a goat. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi [Bg. 3.27]. When you are being made into a goat, you cannot check it. That is in the hand of mother. Then what is your answer? Will you take that risk?
Bhavānanda: Not if I’m intelligent.
Prabhupāda: (chuckling) Therefore anyone who worships the other demigod, they are hṛta–jñānāḥ, there is no sense.
Hari–śauri: Alpa–medhasa.
Prabhupāda: Less intelligent. Yānti deva–vratā devān [Bg. 9.25]. You will remain within this material world. That is Mother’s kingdom. This external world is controlled by the Mother Durgā. She’s in charge of this material world. So if you become a perfect devotee of Mother, you get all good chances in this material world but not eternal life. Within this material world wherever you go everything is limited, either you become Indra or Brahmā, or ant. Just like President Nixon, so long he was President he was doing everything as he liked, and now he’s an ordinary man, (indistinct). This is Mother’s kingdom. Is that Mr. Nixon the same Nixon when he was President? But same Nixon is he, but the atmosphere and the circumstance is the same? Does he not realize it? “How I was enjoying as President and what is my position. Everyone kicks on my face.” Is that very good position? Therefore alpa. Antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ tad bhavaty alpa–medhasām [Bg. 7.23]. Antavat tu phalam. This position ultimately will be ended. Therefore less intelligent class are after this, not very intelligent men. What is time?
Hari–śauri: Twenty to eleven. (end)
Link to this page: https://prabhupadabooks.com/conversations/1977/feb/varnasrama_system_must_be_introduced/mayapura/february/14/1977
John Dewey
Śyāmasundara: Today we are discussing the American philosopher John Dewey. Last time we were discussing William James, who is called a pragmatist. His philosophy deals…, believes that practice is better than theory. So this John Dewey is more or less a successor in this same line of philosophizing. He says that practical consequences are the only valid test of truth, and he says that the proof of an idea consists in its being subject to predictable results. The idea is not true unless the results of the idea are predictable.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Śyāmasundara: He is also…
Prabhupāda: That is practical. That is practical. No theoretical knowledge is necessary.
Śyāmasundara: But do the results of an idea have to be predictable?
Prabhupāda: Idea may…, if it is a concocted idea, the result cannot be ascertained. If it is fact, then the result can be predicted.
Śyāmasundara: He says that the object of inquiry or asking questions is belief; that because we want to believe something we often ask questions in order to find something to believe in. This is the nature of inquiry.
Prabhupāda: So that is the Vedānta–sūtra: to find out the ultimate cause of everything, the inquiries about the Absolute Truth. So these inquiries should be made to the person who knows; otherwise, what is the use of inquiring? That is the Vedic injunction. If you want to inquire about truth, then you must approach the bona fide spiritual master, guru. Guru means bona fide. But because there are so many pseudo gurus at the present moment, therefore we have to add this word “bona fide.” Otherwise, guru means bona fide. One who is not bona fide, he cannot be guru. But people are misled by persons, pseudo or false gurus; therefore you have to add this word “bona fide.” Otherwise there is no necessity of adding this word.
Śyāmasundara: He believes that it is the nature of inquiry itself to want to believe something, even on the small, everyday level. If I want to know who put these flowers here, because I want to believe the truth about these flowers, I ask, I inquire.
Prabhupāda: So inquiry means to know the truth. Therefore our inquiry should be made to a person who knows the truth. Otherwise the inquiry has no valid position. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. That is Vedic injunction. The inquiry should be genuine and the answer should come from a genuine person. Then it is all right.
Śyāmasundara: He says that the final outcome of inquiry is the fulfillment of human needs by practical action, to change the external environment.
Prabhupāda: Yes. A human being, unless he is inquisitive about the Absolute Truth, he is not considered sufficiently developed in human form. Unless this enquiry is there, about self, what I am, he is not considered sufficiently developed in his consciousness. He is still in ignorance.
Śyāmasundara: But his perspective is that by inquiring, we find out what is wrong with our environment, our external environment.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Śyāmasundara: And we take practical actions to change that environment and thus fulfill human needs.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is nice. That inquiry will clear everything. If the person is serious, if he inquires what is the aim of human life, then he is supposed to be intelligent. Otherwise, the animals, they cannot inquire what is the aim of life. They are simply eating, sleeping. That’s all. But a human being must be inquisitive what is the value of life.
Śyāmasundara: But is our… Is the result of our inquiry to change the external environment?
Prabhupāda: Yes. If you are seriously inquiring and if you know things as they are, then we can change our activities. What we are preaching? That your business is to know Kṛṣṇa. So if people actually take this movement seriously, then his mode of life will be changed. That is practically happening. All our students, they were leading a certain type of life, and since they have come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, their whole program has been changed.
Śyāmasundara: We have come to the same question we were discussing with Marx: whether changing external environment is prerequisite to improvement or changing the consciousness is prerequisite. And you answered before, in Marx’s case, that if we change the consciousness, then the environment becomes changed…
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Śyāmasundara: …rather than vice versa. Also, to a certain extent the other way. If we change the environment, the consciousness changes.
Prabhupāda: It is the cause and effect. One is the cause of the other; other is the cause of the other. But actually it is the consciousness that requires to be changed—either by hearing from authority or by circumstances. There are two processes to achieve knowledge. This, in Bengali it is said, dekhe sekhara, teke sekhara. When one is actually in an awkward circumstances, that’s a fact. So “This kind of way of life is not good. I have to change it.” This is called tekhe sekhara. When he is actually in danger, he takes precautions of danger. But one who is intelligent, he understands by hearing that “If you do like that, then you will fall in danger.” So that man is intelligent who learns by hearing from the authorities. And one who actually experienced the awkward position, and then he changes his consciousness… That is also one of the processes, but this is better. Therefore our process is to approach the bona fide teacher and learn from him everything. That is brahmacārī life. Not by practical experience. That is Vedic knowledge. The experience is already there. You simply hear and take it. Then it becomes easier. But if you expect that “First of all let me fall down into the ditch, then I shall cry…” Better man is, he takes advice, “Don’t go there. You’ll fall down in the ditch.” Just like Kālidāsa. Kālidāsa was in the beginning he was a great fool. So he was cutting a tree, sitting on the branch. So some intelligent men was going around, “What you are doing, nonsense? You shall fall down.” He didn’t care, but cutting, he actually fell down. Then, “Oh, you are very intelligent! How did you say? How did you foretold?” Then they saw that he was a first-class fool. So “This boy should be taken to the king’s daughter to become her husband.” The girl was so intelligent that the challenge was that “Any man who will defeat me in argument, I shall marry.” But she was so intelligent that nobody could defeat. So all the learned scholars, the father was asking, “Bring me an intelligent boy to marry her.” So they did not find any intelligent boy. Whoever comes, he is defeated. So they decided “Now, because she is so determined to have a very nice husband, we shall make this boy her husband, this fool number one.” So they took him there and instructed that “That girl…” and he will show his finger like this. “You’ll show this.” So he was a fool, so “All right, I’ll do that.” So when he was brought to the girl, the girl held up one finger and he showed two fingers, and then the all the paṇḍitas, “Oh, the answer is given him. Your girl says eka brahma, ‘Brahman is one.’ ” And he immediately answered (indistinct), “There is no two Brahma. Brahman is one.” The girl also thought, “Yes, this boy is a genius.” So in this way this foolish man was made her husband, and at night, when she came to understand that he was fool number one, she kicked him and asked him, “Get out of my room.” So he became very insulted: “My wife has kicked me. I am so fool. So I shall make suicide by drowning in the water.” He was crying and remembering the goddess of learning, that “I am so foolish, my dear mother Sarasvatī. You did not favor me, so I shall kill myself.” With great lamentation he was going to die. At that time, Sarasvatī became very kind and she appeared, “Kālidāsa, why you are drowning this way?” “My mother, this is my position. I have been insulted by my wife because I am a fool.” “All right, from henceforward you shall be very learned.” “Oh, but I do not know…” “No, whatever you say, it will be all right.” He got this benediction from mother Sarasvatī. He came back, then he was knocking the door. The wife said, “Who are you?” He replied, hastigrati vada viśeṣaṇa (?), “Somebody who can speak very learnedly.” Then whatever he was replying, he became, by the grace of Sarasvatī, he became highly learned scholarly speaking. So Kālidāsa, with these four words he wrote four books that is very famous: the Kumāra–sambhava. He began with this word hasti, and the word raghu–vaṁśa kaścid. In this way he was (indistinct), and he became very famous by this. Hasti uttarasyandeśa himalayanarna naradi rajan uddhva paro toyanidhi balaja stita pratijñān eva mana danda (?). This is the beginning of Kumāra–sambhava. Kumāra–sambhava means Lord Śiva’s marriage with the daughter of Himalaya. He begins describing Himalaya: hasti uttarasyandesi himalayanamadira uttare syan deśe (?) (indistinct), in the northern side there is a king of mountains known as Himalaya. Somebody interprets it that is Arctic region. Urdhva pare yato nidhi upa rājan (?). North and east, there are two oceans—I think this is Atlantic and Pacific-abagajan-touching-sthita pratijñāna eva mana gandha (?)—as the whole (indistinct). In this way he became… He became famous poet by the grace of Sarasvatī. In the beginning he was cutting the same branch on the tree on which he was sitting.
Śyāmasundara: So maybe there is some hope for these philosophers.
Prabhupāda: What?
Śyāmasundara: Maybe there is some hope for these…
Prabhupāda: Yes. By the grace of the superior, yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādo **, we sing every day. If there is blessings of higher authority, everything can be achieved. There is no doubt.
Śyāmasundara: He puts forward five steps for solving problems. (aside conversation-indistinct) The first step is, he says, to observe a problem and think of its nature. The second step is intellectualize the problem further: to analyze the total of difficulties. Three, you make hypothesis which constitutes possible solutions. Four, you analyze these hypotheses in the light of past experience. And five, you put these possible solutions into practice experimentally, and to ascertain the results in actual experience. So his method is that… So the idea is that problems are only solved when the possible solutions are put into practice and we experiment and get a result. Then we find solutions to problems. But not simply by theorizing, but by practice.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So our process of solving problems is Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati [Bg. 9.31]. So we take Kṛṣṇa’s shelter and our problems are solved. As it is mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā, yatra yogeśvaraḥ kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa, He is the reservoir of all mystic power, yogeśvara. So Bhakta’s business is instead of endeavoring to become a yogi, he takes shelter of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is yogeśvara, the master of all mystic power. We take it that this is the solution of our problems. Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te, instead of… I was reciting the verse from the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, bālasya neha saranay vicinvam (?). So there are different kinds of methods of solving the problems. The best method is to surrender unto Kṛṣṇa, and all problems are solved.
Śyāmasundara: On a social scale as well?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything. Social scale also.
Śyāmasundara: His idea is… John Dewey’s idea is that…
Prabhupāda: Just like on the political scale, the Pāṇḍavas took shelter of Kṛṣṇa. There was a political problem, so it was solved in their favor, in the Pāṇḍavas favor. Political means social, political, everything.
Śyāmasundara: This Dewey’s idea is that all sciences must be subservient to human needs.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Śyāmasundara: So he believes in the social sciences, the educational sciences, that…
Prabhupāda: Our educational system is tan manye adhītam uttamam. One who is a devotee and executing the nine different processes of devotional service, śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda–sevanam [SB 7.5.23], Prahlāda Mahārāja says, tan manye adhītam uttama, “I think he is first-class scholar. He has studied nicely everything.” One who has… Caitanya–caritāmṛta kaj says also that kṛṣṇa ye bali sevalacasi (?), unless one is highly intelligent, he cannot take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. In the Bhagavad-gītā also says, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān [Bg. 7.19]. After many, many births of experimenting for solving all problems, when he is actually wise, at that time he takes shelter of Kṛṣṇa, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā [Bg. 7.19], he’s first-class, learned scholar.
Śyāmasundara: Yes. Dewey’s definition of truth is that truth is the means of satisfying human needs and improving social conditions which create problems. So he sees truth as a practical tool…
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Śyāmasundara: …to solve social problems.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Social problems… We have mismanaged social problems because Kṛṣṇa is perfect, so whatever He has created, that is perfect. Pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya pūrṇam evāvaśiṣyate, pūrṇāt pūrṇam udacyate [Iso Invocation]. So everything is perfect, but because we want to disturb Kṛṣṇa by disobeying His order, things appear to be imperfect. (aside in Hindi) So if we remain faithful to Kṛṣṇa, there is no problem. Kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati [Bg. 9.31]. So we are presenting this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement as the solution of all problems. Let any intelligent man come and discuss with us, and we think that we shall be able to convince him that this is the only suggestion. (Hindi aside with guest)
Śyāmasundara: He says that truth is useful and it is public and is objective, and it benefits to society, not merely the individual.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That truth people do not know. The Bhagavad-gītā gives us information of that truth: na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum [SB 7.5.31]. They do not know that the ultimate truth, ultimate objective is Viṣṇu. Without reference to Viṣṇu they are trying to solve the problems of the world differently. That is not possible.
Śyāmasundara: How does worship of Viṣṇu solve social problems? Just like in Calcutta there are more social problems than practically anywhere.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Viṣṇu… In the Viṣṇu Purāṇa, it is said that varṇāśrama–dharma. Varnāśramācāravatā puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān [Cc. Madhya 8.58]. Any man who executes this varṇāśrama–dharma, he satisfies Viṣṇu. The varṇāśrama–dharma is there, and the brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, the vaiśyas, and the śūdras. So according as they are prescribed, how the brāhmaṇas should live, how the kṣatriyas should live, how the…, then there is no trouble. The whole problem is solved. But they have killed the varṇāśrama–dharma. They are now all śūdras. The śūdras, how they can make solutions? Śūdras means nonintelligent persons. So what they can do? They are running on democratic government voted by the śūdras. So what these rascal śūdras will do? They require… Śūdras are meant for serving the higher sections—brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya. And if the śūdras are given government… Just like we are seeing, in Africa they have been given independence, but they have not improved. The Englishman is still controlling, the Indians are still controlling. And what is the meaning of their so-called self-ruling? We have seen it, still they are poor, because they are śūdras. Śūdras have no brain. In America also, the whole America once belonged to the Red Indians. Why they could not improve? The land was there. Why these foreigners, the Europeans, came and improved? So śūdras cannot do this. They cannot make any correction. Now people are becoming śūdras by so-called education. So they cannot make any solution of the problems. If that daiva varṇāśrama again established, then the whole problem will be solved. That was the plan of my Guru Mahārāja, daiva–varṇāśrama city. Daiva varṇāśrama means that it is stated by Kṛṣṇa, guṇa–karma–vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. By qualification, by the work, one should be brāhmaṇa. By qualification, by work, one should be kṣatriya. By qualification, by work, one should be vaiśya. By qualification, by work, one should be śūdra. When this order is established, that is called varṇāśrama–dharma. Then Viṣṇu, Lord, will be happy, and He will give us… He is already giving. Eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān. Actually, He’s giving us all the necessities of life. But because we are now śūdras and devoid of devotional service, so prakṛti is controlling the supply. That is the difference. That is stated in connection with Pṛthu Mahārāja. Pṛthu Mahārāja, because there was not enough production, he wanted to kill the pṛthvī. So he says that “That’s all right, but I am controlling because production is meant for performing yajña. These rascals, the demons, they are simply eating. They are not performing yajña. Therefore I am controlling.” Saho yajña pratiṣṭhita. The whole plan is that the living entities, especially the human beings, they are meant for performing yajña. Yajña means to satisfy the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Viṣṇu. The Bhagavad-gītā also says, yajña–dāna–tapaḥ–kriyā na tyājam. You cannot give up these three things, even if you are in the renounced order of life. Yajña–dāna–tapaḥ–kriyā. It is just like our Vaiṣṇava sannyāsīs, they are performing saṅkīrtana yajña and they are distributing Kṛṣṇa love. And to keep themselves fit, they are observing the rules and regulations and chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is yajña–dāna–tapaḥ–kriyā. Following the rules and regulations and regularly chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, that is tapasya. And this is the best dāna, charity. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He was eulogized by Rūpa Gosvāmī: namo mahā–vadānyāya kṛṣṇa–prema–pradāya te [Cc. Madhya 19.53]. “You are the most munificent incarnation because You are giving love of Godhead.” So those who are distributing the idea of love of Godhead, they are the best charitably disposed man. So we, we have not given up yajña–dāna–tapaḥ. That is not to be renounced. Because a sannyāsī is renounced. Renounced means he should renounce his sense gratification, not renounce these things, yajña–dana–tapaḥ.
Śyāmasundara: So these three items are necessary to solve social…
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes!
Śyāmasundara: So everyone should try…
Prabhupāda: For everyone. Especially if…, not everyone. Yajña for the brahmacārīs, dāna for the householders, gṛhastha, and tapa for the renounced. Tapasya. If it is not done all, at least these three classes of men should not give up their occupation, yajña–dāna–tapaś caiva pāvanāni manīṣiṇām. Yajña–dāna–tapaḥ–kriyā, pāvanāni manīṣiṇām. Even if you think that you are very highly elevated, still, yajña–dāna–tapaḥ–kriyā is necessary for you. You should not give it up.
Śyāmasundara: Dewey says that the ethical goals are fulfillment of human needs and desires, that all morality should lead to this goal of fulfillment of human needs and desires.
Prabhupāda: The human need is to get out of the clutches of māyā. That is the actual need. Janma–maraṇa–mokṣaya, that is the need. But the modern society, they do not know what is needed. They are making simply plans, uselessly. Śrama eva hi kevalam [SB 1.2.8]. Simply laboring hard, they do not know the need. The real need is to get out of the clutches of repetition of birth and death in different forms. But people do not know this. They are simply concocting ideas. Durāśayā ye bahir–artha–maninaḥ. Durāśayā, hopeless, or they are trying to educate something which is impossible. They are making plans to be happy in this material world. And by the United Nations it is impossible. That is not intelligence. He says… We can say in the United Nations clearly that “Your, this attempt will be failure.” It is already failure. (aside in Hindi) Hariṁ vinā naiva mṛtiṁ taranti. What is the solution? You cannot make any solution of this repetition of birth and death, disease and old age. What do you mean by solution? The real problems are there. So they do not know what are the problems, how to solve them. So andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās [SB 7.5.31]. Some blind leaders, so-called leaders, they are leading other blind men. This is going on. They do not know what is the aim of life, how to make solutions of the problems. They do not know.
Śyāmasundara: He says that there must be a continuous probe of human beings in moral sensitivity. In other words, that people must become more and more sensitive to moral values and that there must be practical realization of a better social world.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness society, International Society for Kṛṣṇa Consciousness. Simply come forward and understand. Therefore we have made it society, Kṛṣṇa conscious society.
Śyāmasundara: He makes one statement. He says that “The good man is the man who, no matter how morally unworthy he has been, is moving to become something better.”
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Śyāmasundara: “Growth itself is the only moral end.”
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā: api cet su-durācāro bhajate mām ananya–bhāk. The devotee, even in the beginning he is found not in order, doing something wrong, still, because he has taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he is accepted as sādhu. Api cet su-durācāro bhajate mām ananya–bhāk, sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ [Bg. 9.30]. Where one may say that there are so many discrepancies in his life and yet he is doing all right in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but he has not corrected his habits, the reply is, kṣipraṁ bhavati dharmātmā śāśvac chāntiṁ nigacchati. Because he has taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, all his bad habits will be corrected very soon.
Śyāmasundara: So that as long as one is improving in his moral nature…
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is ultimate moral nature—take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and gradually all moral things will come. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ [SB 5.18.12]. All good qualifications will come automatically if he sticks to these four principles—these regulative principles and chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, and abiding by the orders of the spiritual master. Then everything will come automatically.
Śyāmasundara: Moral qualities will follow?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Śyāmasundara: It’s not that one has to develop them independently?
Prabhupāda: No. Automatically it will come. Because the good qualities are already there in the spirit soul, and it is being purified, uncovered by the material contamination. The original cult is coming out. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Śyāmasundara: What does the word “cult” mean?
Prabhupāda: Cult means… What do you mean by cult? Cult is an ordinary word.
Śyāmasundara: I’ve always thought cult meant something sectarian or…
Prabhupāda: Not sectarian. Cult means the natural occupation.
Revatīnandana: It usually means… A group with a common interest is usually called a cult. Some group with some common, agreed-upon interest.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is I was explaining this, manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye [Bg. 7.3]. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not for everyone. It is meant for a certain group. Therefore you can take it as a cult, although it is meant for everyone. But generally we are accepted by the high-class intelligent men. Therefore we can call it cult.
Śyāmasundara: Same word, “cultivation” or “culture”?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇanuśīlanam. The exact word is kṛṣṇānuśīlanam. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam [Cc. Madhya 19.167]. That is cult, cultivation of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Favorably. Not Kṛṣṇa consciousness like Kamsa, always thinking of Kṛṣṇa, how to kill Him. That is not ānukūlyena. That is not favorable. But you have to cultivate Kṛṣṇa consciousness favorably: How Kṛṣṇa will be satisfied. How Kṛṣṇa will be pleased. And that is required. This cult is required. Hṛṣīkeṇa–hṛṣīkeśa–sevanaṁ bhaktir uttamam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. When your senses will be purified and they will be engaged in serving Kṛṣṇa, satisfying Kṛṣṇa, that is bhakti. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Śyāmasundara: He says that there is no such thing as absolute good and bad but that each specific situation must be treated individually. There is no absolute good and bad; that each individual situation must be…
Prabhupāda: Yes. So that situation means Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Anything done in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is good. Anything done not for Kṛṣṇa’s satisfaction, it may be ethically, so-called ethically right—it has no use.
Śyāmasundara: He says that the greatest good…
Prabhupāda: That situation… (indistinct) That situation means Kṛṣṇa consciousness. In practical life also we see that the soldier’s killing, it is supported by the government. The same soldier killing for his personal satisfaction, he is condemned to death.
Śyāmasundara: He says that the greatest good is the elimination of the greatest evil or the fulfillment of man’s greatest needs.
Prabhupāda: That’s it. We follow that, that the highest objective, the ultimate objective is Kṛṣṇa, Viṣṇu. So becoming a Vaiṣṇava, the highest perfection of human life is achieved.
Śyāmasundara: So that greatest need is…
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The greatest need is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. (Hindi with guest) Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is the supreme consciousness. Yes. That is pure consciousness, Kṛṣṇa. Mamaivāṁśo jīva loke jīva–bhūtaḥ sanātanaḥ [Bg. 15.7]. Every living entity is Kṛṣṇa’s part and parcel. He always remembers that “I am part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. It is my duty to serve Kṛṣṇa.” This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Śyāmasundara: He says that…
Prabhupāda: Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya kṛṣṇa dāsa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. If he remembers always this.
Devotee: Eternal position of the living entity…
Prabhupāda: Yes. Then he’ll be in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, perfect consciousness. But they are thinking that “I am Kṛṣṇa. I am God.” That is not Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Śyāmasundara: He says that the choice between good and bad is not made on theoretical grounds, but for reducing specific evils. In other words…
Prabhupāda: It is not theoretical that if you accept the universal form of God, then everything within the universe is part and parcel of that form. That is practical.
Śyāmasundara: But say there…
Prabhupāda: Like a big tree, the every leaf, every branch, every twig, every flower is a part and parcel of the whole tree. Similarly, virāṭ–rūpa. Apart from Kṛṣṇa’s personal rūpa, the virāṭ–rūpa as it was manifested before Arjuna, if you take the virāṭ–rūpa, the whole universal form of the Lord, then anything within the universe is part and parcel of that virāṭ–rūpa, the resulting form.
Śyāmasundara: So the choice between a good and a bad action should be practiced to reduce evil, not just theoretical. That’s his idea. That’s his point.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No theory. This is practical. Now, as a big machine, the screw is a part, so if every part works nicely, the machine goes nicely. So if we understand… Just like I think last night I was explaining mukha baho rūpa divya: the gigantic body, the brāhmaṇa class, they are the mouth. So one must do the duty of the mouth. The mouth speaks, vibrates and eats. So our proposition is to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and eat Kṛṣṇa prasādam. Then the mouth duty, the brāhmaṇa’s duty, is performed. Similarly, the kṣatriya’s duty—again we come to that varṇāśrama–dharma. So everyone is factually part and parcel of God and executes his prescribed duty, then it is perfect.
varṇāśramācāravatā
puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān
viṣṇur ārādhyate puṁsāṁ
nānyat tat–toṣa–kāraṇam
[Cc. Madhya 8.58]
If you want to satisfy the Supreme Lord, then you must execute the functions as they are prescribed in the varṇāśrama system. Then everything is all right. The same example: If all the parts of a machine is in order, working, it will make no trouble. If one of the screws, I mean, is slack, or it has fallen down, then another part is dislocated, that whole work is stopped. So we should consider in that way, that we are all part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. So according to part and parcel, you must execute your duty—as brāhmaṇa, as kṣatriya, as vaiśya, as śūdra. And the brāhmaṇa being head, he should give the direction. Therefore he is considered the guru of other varṇas. But he… Because if there is no head, no brāhmaṇa, then the whole thing is disturbed. And that is the position at the present moment. Actually there is no brāhmaṇa, or scarcity of brāhmaṇa. So others are not guided properly. Therefore there is chaos in the whole society. So we require to create some brāhmaṇas, and others should understand to abide by the direction of the brāhmaṇas. Then the whole society will be in order.
Śyāmasundara: He says that the world can be made better by man’s efforts, but that perfection is not possible.
Prabhupāda: No. Yes. In one sense it is all right, because this world is so made that you make it perfect today, again it deteriorates. Therefore in one sense we cannot make it perfect. That is a fact.
Śyāmasundara: But you can improve it?
Prabhupāda: Improve it. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati [Bg. 4.7]. Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām [Bg. 4.8]. So it can be improved, in any bad condition, by… How you can improve? By this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. As Kṛṣṇa says, “I am…” [break] Svarūpa means ādayaḥ. Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the same thing. If you are in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that means you are living with Kṛṣṇa. And if you are living with Kṛṣṇa, then what is your fear? Just like Arjuna, fighting with Kṛṣṇa, he had no fear. Similarly, if you live with Kṛṣṇa and go on with Kṛṣṇa, then what is your fear?
Śyāmasundara: What is that quote you said last night in the taxi, padma, padma…
Prabhupāda: Padaṁ padaṁ yat vipadāṁ na teṣām.
samāśritā ye pada–pallava-plavaṁ
mahat–padaṁ puṇya-yaśo murāreḥ
bhavāmbudhir vatsa–padaṁ paraṁ padaṁ
padaṁ padaṁ yad vipadāṁ na teṣām
[SB 10.14.58]
Śyāmasundara: And the purport?
Prabhupāda: And the purport is, one who has taken shelter of the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa, for him, this ocean of nescience, bhavasamudra, because just like a small pit foot created by the cow’s hoof.
Devotee: Footprint.
Prabhupāda: And this place wherein there is step by step danger, this is not God’s place. That Kṛṣṇa also says. As soon as he understands Kṛṣṇa, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. He immediately becomes eligible to transfer to the spiritual world.
Śyāmasundara: So actually, we’re removing people from danger, from evil, by making them Kṛṣṇa conscious.
Prabhupāda: Certainly.
Śyāmasundara: So this is a welfare activity.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. This is best welfare activity in the world. What others can do in comparison to this?
Śyāmasundara: They may be able to remove some of the temporary dangers…
Prabhupāda: Yes. To give some temporary benefit, but again he is fallen.
Śyāmasundara: Step by step there’s danger. When we discussed the utilitarians…
Prabhupāda: (indistinct) In Caitanya Mahāprabhu’s address, namo mahā–vadānyāya. If I give some charity to a needy man, it will serve for a temporary period, but if you give him Kṛṣṇa–prema, then immediately he’ll be transferred to the spiritual world.
namo mahā–vadānyāya
kṛṣṇa–prema–pradāya te
kṛṣṇāya kṛṣṇa–caitanya–
nāmne gaura–tviṣe namaḥ
[Cc. Madhya 19.53]
Mahā–vadānyāya. This is the most munificent path—to distribute Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa: “Whomever you meet, just deliver this message of Kṛṣṇa.” That is best welfare activity in the world.
Śyāmasundara: When we were discussing the utilitarians, we discussed that their goal was to achieve what was desired by the people, to do whatever was required…
Prabhupāda: No. Desired by the people-happiness. But they are trying to give happiness temporary, and we are giving happiness direct. Just like Bhāgavata says, yasmād brahma–saukhyam anantam, tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyed sattvam [SB 5.5.1]. Purify your existence, and you’ll get perpetual, eternal happiness, bliss. So everyone is working hard for happiness, but how happiness can be attained in diseased condition? So cure the disease and he’ll get it eternal. That is… Here is a physician. If you go when there is ailment, if you go to him, “Sir, cure me.” “Why?” because it is impediment to happiness. Similarly, the real disease is janma–mṛtyu–jarā–vyādhi [Bg. 13.9]. You cure this, then you get real happiness.
Śyāmasundara: These utilitarians said that activity should be to achieve all that is desired by the people, but Dewey says that activity should be to achieve what is worthy to be desired.
Prabhupāda: No, no. First thing is, people are desiring happiness. Whatever one may desire, the ultimate end is happiness. Nobody can deny this. But a diseased fellow, if he thinks that “I am happy,” that is false happiness. A diseased man cannot be happy unless the disease is cured. Sometimes we go to a diseased person and ask, “How are you?” “Yes, I am all right.” If he is all right, why is he lying down? He is not all right. He is artificially saying that “I am all right.” What is this “all right”? Similarly, these foolish people, they are thinking, “I am happy.” What is their happiness? If you have to die, then where is your happiness? Janma–mṛtyu–jarā–vyādhi duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam. A real intelligent person will see that these are the things which are giving me distress: janma–mṛtyu–jarā–vyādhi. So where is the happiness? Foolishly if we accept something as happiness, that is not happiness. Real happiness is when you are free from these four principles of distress: janma–mṛtyu–jarā–vyādhi [Bg. 13.9]. Otherwise, where is your happiness? But if you think that “Although I am dying, I am happy,” that is another thing, a fool’s paradise.
Śyāmasundara: He says that “Desirable courses of action must meet specifiable conditions which are subject to prediction, and they must be based on judgments of experience.” In other words, the desirable courses of action should be chalked out by experience, and they must be predictable.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Predictable. Just like we don’t want death. So if I get the chance to come to a position not to die, is it not predictable? You don’t want to die, and if I say, “You will come to this position, you will not die…”
Śyāmasundara: Yes. Is there some experience that shows me that that is a predictable result?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Experience… You may not have experience, but the superior has got experience. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāmaṁ paramaṁ mama [Bg. 15.6]. He says that “If you come to Me, you will never come back again.” Just see. Who can excel Kṛṣṇa’s experience? Vedāhaṁ samatītāni: [Bg. 7.26] He knows past, present, and future, so you have to take His assertion.
Śyāmasundara: He says that “Judgments about values are judgments about the conditions and the results of experienced objects, judgments about that which should regulate the formation of our desires, affections and enjoyments.” In other words, in order to place a value on something, to judge what is the value of a particular item, that we should base this judgment upon the results of experience. Then we can guide those things which we should enjoy, where our desires should be, where our affections should lie, upon experience.
Prabhupāda: That experience we may not have personally, but if you take advice from a person who has got experience, that is as good as my experience. Just like you are going somewhere, you are purchasing a ticket. You have no experience where you are going, or you do not know whether actually you will go, but because others have gone and come by purchasing a ticket, you take advantage of that experience and you purchase a ticket.
Śyāmasundara: He says that value equals satisfaction. In other words, the fulfillment of…
Prabhupāda: So unless you have faith in some person, how you can be satisfied? Therefore you should find out a person in whom you can place your faith. And who can be a better person than Kṛṣṇa?
Śyāmasundara: If certain specific conditions are met, then the satisfaction is transformed into a value. In other words, if my hunger is satisfied by eating a certain foodstuff, then this foodstuff is given value.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So Kṛṣṇa gives that value. Just like Kṛṣṇa gave the value in Bhagavad-gītā, and Arjuna in the beginning denied to fight, but he agreed to fight. He agreed to fight.
Śyāmasundara: Because he was satisfied by his faith in Kṛṣṇa?
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is required.
Śyāmasundara: He says that moral laws are comparable to physical laws. In other words, they are guidelines to elicit certain responses under given conditions. Just like if I throw a ball up, I know it is going to come down. So a moral law will guide me in the same way. If I act in a certain way, there will automatically be a certain result, a response.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like we prescribe, ādau śraddhā tato sādhu saṅgasya. If you follow one after another, you get the result. If you have got faith, you make association with devotees. Then the next step, you will be eager to execute devotional service. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-sango ‘thya bhajana–kriyā ‘nartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt [Cc. Madhya 23.14-15]. Then all misgivings are eradicated. Then you become firm faith, niṣṭhā, then attachment, one after another. Unless you experience the next result, how can you make progress?
Śyāmasundara: Are there any moral guidelines to Kṛṣṇa consciousness?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Moral guidelines are there. That is given by Rūpa Gosvāmī, sato vṛtteḥ, sadho saṅge, utsāhān niścayād dhairyāt [Upadeśāmṛta 3]. With patience and conviction, enthusiasm, becoming very fair in your dealings, and in association of saintly persons, devotees, you will advance.
Śyāmasundara: Then the result of following these guidelines is predictable results? Automatically certain things happen.
Prabhupāda: Yes. One after another. Just like a teacher gives a task to the students, one type of task in the beginning, next another type, next another type, he makes progress.
Śyāmasundara: What are those again? Patience…?
Prabhupāda: First of all, enthusiasm.
Śyāmasundara: First enthusiasm.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless you are enthusiastic, how can you enter into any activities? Utsāhān. Then patience—not to be impatient, “Oh, I am working so hard, I am getting no result.” No. You will get. So (indistinct) niścaya, the firm conviction that “Because I have taken the path of the mahājanas prescribed by Rūpa Gosvāmī or prescribed by Kṛṣṇa, it must be successful.” It may be taking some time, it is delayed, that doesn’t matter. It will be successful. Niścaya. Not that niścaya can sit idly. No. Tat-tat-karma–pravartanāt. Prescribed duties must be performed fairly, in good faith, sato vṛtteḥ. And in the association, that will give us impetus. People are coming to our association automatically. Just like John came in our association, and gradually he has become a devotee.
Śyāmasundara: So if one follows these moral guidelines, the result is certain, predictable?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Certainly. (Hindi with guest) Good association means to associate with one of the devotees. Sādhu–saṅga [Cc. Madhya 22.83]. (Hindi with guest)
Śyāmasundara: He says that moral laws are not absolute rules which never permit exceptions. He says that moral laws are flexible; that they’re not absolute.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Real moral law means the law of the Supreme. Just like Kṛṣṇa has preached dhyāna–yoga, jñāna–yoga, haṭha–yoga, so many yoga systems. Then He says, sarva–dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. These principles have not less moral, dhyāna–yoga, jñāna–yoga, aṣṭāṅga-yoga, but ultimately He says, “Give up all of them.” Then what is moral? His word is moral. Whatever He says, that is moral. Not this dhyāna–yoga, jñāna–yoga. No. Whatever He says, that is morality. So it is changed. Nobody can argue: “Sir, you have prescribed so many kinds of yogas. Now You say to give up all these things. It is contradictory.” No. It is not contradictory. Whatever He says, that is morality. That is Vaiṣṇava principle. We don’t consider anything moral or immoral. Whatever is ordered by Kṛṣṇa or His representative, that is moral. That is our position.
Śyāmasundara: He says, “It is the function of intelligence to serve action, and action benefits man when it obeys the dictates of intelligence.”
Prabhupāda: Yes. So who can be more intelligent than Kṛṣṇa?
Śyāmasundara: Then he says that “Values must be regarded as goods of practical significance which result from intelligently directed activities.” So something we place value on must be acted…
Prabhupāda: Yes. Arjuna followed the decision of Kṛṣṇa, so there is value. He became victorious, he enjoyed the kingdom, and he became a famous devotee.
Śyāmasundara: As a practical result of his activities?
Prabhupāda: Yes. As a practical result. Parīkṣit Mahārāja said that this Kurukṣetra fight was just like a great ocean, and all these Bhīṣma, Droṇa, Karṇa, they were just like big animals in the ocean. He said, “It is important for my grandfather to cross the ocean dangerously with all these big, big animals. But by the grace of Kṛṣṇa it was possible.” This is value.
yatra yogeśvaraḥ kṛṣṇo
yatra pārtho dhanur–dharaḥ
tatra vijayo…
Śyāmasundara: He says that morality is social, that besides a personal meaning it must have a social meaning.
Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa consciousness is a type of morality which is above social meaning. It is transcendental. Social means guided by the three modes of material nature. But Kṛṣṇa’s order is above, transcendental. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān [Bg. 14.26].
Śyāmasundara: So it’s asocial but not antisocial. Our morality is above social.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Social is subordinate to this world.
Śyāmasundara: But it is not antisocial.
Prabhupāda: No. It is social. It is sublime social. It is not only social but sublime social.
Śyāmasundara: He says that rights are also social, just like if I claim a right, a certain social right, that I must also accept my responsibility. Just for instance free speech. If I accept free speech as my social right, that I must also accept others’ right to free speech.
Prabhupāda: But that is lacking in the present society, because these rascals, they are proud of their nationals but they are denying this same national life to the animals. They are being sent to the slaughterhouse. Therefore they are rascals. Why the animals should be denied their national right? They are born in the same country. They have a right to live at the cost of God. Why we are interfering with their independence, given right? Therefore they are rascals. Their so-called social, moral, philosophical, political, they are all rascaldom. Therefore our decision is, harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā: [SB 5.18.12] anyone who is not a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, he has no good qualities. In the other direction, we will find so many defects with his so-called moral and social position.
Śyāmasundara: He says that God… He defines God as the active relation between the ideal and the actual.
Prabhupāda: Yes. We are active in God’s service. People are thinking, “What service they are doing? They should be giving service to the country, to society, and they are making ārati and brass idols.” They are thinking like that. But for us it is practical.
Śyāmasundara: His idea is that there is no particular being who is God, but that God is the unity of all ideal ends, which allows us to desire an action. In other words, whatever motivates us to higher activity, that is God, that motivation, but that God is…
Prabhupāda: In other words, whatever you do for God, that is higher activity.
Śyāmasundara: Well, he would say whatever you do for anyone—for community or country—whatever is higher activity…
Prabhupāda: Then why does he name “God”?
Śyāmasundara: He says God is not a particular being.
Prabhupāda: Then why does he name “God”? Why does he bring in the word “God”? Suppose if he is concerned with the man only, so why does he bring the word in, “God”? What is the purpose?
Śyāmasundara: He is trying to define that which motivates us to desire something higher or more.
Prabhupāda: That means God should be an instrument to serve our purpose. That is his philosophy.
Śyāmasundara: Not necessarily. He leaves that open.
Prabhupāda: Then why does he bring the name of God? That is my position.
Revatīnandana: It says he could not accept the term as referring to a particular being.
Śyāmasundara: He said that “God summons us to intelligent actions which calls for deliberate choice, purposive behavior that is selective.” In other words, he is trying to find out why is it that the human intelligence acts in such a way that it selects this over that and guides itself by selecting purposefully. That purposiveness he calls God.
Prabhupāda: That is making the name of God as a scapegoat. He has no practical use of God.
Śyāmasundara: He has no clear idea of God.
Prabhupāda: That means he is godless. So therefore we say, harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā [SB 5.18.12]. As soon as he becomes godless, all his philosophy becomes null and void.
Śyāmasundara: He says that the word “God” is that ideal which we acknowledge as having authority over our emotions and our will or volition.
Prabhupāda: But he says there is no being; it is an ideal.
Śyāmasundara: It’s an idea.
Prabhupāda: So people may not like that ideas; therefore the communists are there. Others may not like this idea.
Guest: He says God summons. He says God summons us. But I cannot see how a nonbeing can summon.
Prabhupāda: Summons. That is contradiction.
Śyāmasundara: He says it is the idea which…
Prabhupāda: How the idea summons? He says the idea summons us.
Śyāmasundara: Ah, yes. Well, and he says that it is the value to which one is supremely devoted, that this is God.
Prabhupāda: How can devotion be possible without a being? Just like devotion means between the devotee and the person who is offered that devotional service.
Śyāmasundara: Just like the Communists would say that “God is the state, and all my supreme devotion is for the state, to serve the state.”
Prabhupāda: That’s all right, but your state, Communist Russian state, is not overgrowing others. So that cannot be God. God is obeyed by everyone. Your state may not be obeyed by other states. God means the supreme controller. You are not the supreme controller. Then how can you make the state as God, your state?
Śyāmasundara: So actually his idea of God would change. For the Communists God means the state; for the primitive savage God means the…
Prabhupāda: Just like Gandhi made Cāṇakya his god.
Śyāmasundara: Yes. That to which one is supremely devoted, that means God.
Prabhupāda: Anyone may be supremely devoted to his wife or sometimes supremely devoted to his dog. The dog is God? Wife is God? So everyone has got one god, and I think that it is supported by Vivekananda, yata mata tata patha: “Whatever you think of God, that’s all right.” (Hindi with guest) Everyone can manufacture his own God. (laughter) Yes.
Śyāmasundara: He says that we cannot achieve absolute certainty or perfection. So we must rest content…
Prabhupāda: That means he has got a poor fund of knowledge. He does not admit that. But we can say that because his knowledge is not perfect, he’s saying like that.
Śyāmasundara: So he says that we must rest content with a faith and a commitment which helps us to face the future resolutely, reconstructing our environment to obtain more satisfactory adjustments. This is the Western philosophy in a nutshell.
Prabhupāda: Why not take directly the words of God? (Hindi with guest)
Śyāmasundara: He says that the idea of God is relative to the observer; that it may be something for one man and something for another. So there is no absolute certainty…
Prabhupāda: That means that none of them know what is God. That is the difference. Therefore Bhagavad-gītā says,
manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu
kaścid yatati siddhaye
yatatām api siddhānāṁ
kaścid māṁ vetti tattvataḥ
[Bg. 7.3]
Nobody knows God. Only one person in many millions may know.
Śyāmasundara: He finds refuge in a kind of humanitarian welfare idea that by…
Prabhupāda: This is called utilitarian.
Śyāmasundara: Called what?
Prabhupāda: Utilitarian.
Śyāmasundara: Utilitarian. He differs from the utilitarians, because they say that we should not…
Prabhupāda: They say if some idea can be utilized for some better position of society. That is utilitarian.
Śyāmasundara: But the utilitarians say that everything should be utilized to serve man’s desires. But he says everything should be used to serve man’s worthiest desires, man’s highest desires, worthy desires.
Prabhupāda: What is the difference between desire and highest desire?
Śyāmasundara: Well, someone may desire more broadness.
Prabhupāda: Who will judge who is highest? Everyone will say, “My desire is the highest.”
Śyāmasundara: The utilitarians might say that “People desire more brothels, so let us build more brothels.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Modern world, that is the highest desire. How can you refute that if there is no standard? Everyone says, “This is my law.” Unless you go to the court, who will judge?
Revatīnandana: Now he wants to make his desire the highest desire. He’s got a theory now that “This is the highest thing I can think of, so this is God.” That means I have the highest.
Śyāmasundara: He says that…
Prabhupāda: Our formula is perfect.
Śyāmasundara: He says…
Prabhupāda: We say that if one is Kṛṣṇa conscious, then he is all right. Otherwise reject him. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā manorathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ [SB 5.18.12]. They are mano–ratha. They are mental speculators. They are hovering on the mental plane.
Śyāmasundara: He says that we must continually make satisfactory adjustment; that things change…
Prabhupāda: That you cannot do, because you are hovering on the mental plane. And the mind is always imperfect, rejecting and accepting. So nothing will be standard. Your mind is accepting something, I am rejecting it. So on the mental plane you cannot come to the standard. It is not possible.
Śyāmasundara: He says that…
Prabhupāda: In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said,
indriyāṇi parāṇy āhur
indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ
manasas tu parā buddhir
yo buddheḥ paratas tu saḥ
[Bg. 3.42]
We have to go, transcend the mental platform, go to the intellectual platform, then surpass intellectual platform, come to the spiritual platform. That is the process. (Hindi with guest) No. That is not sufficient.
Śyāmasundara: He says that the nature of existence is temporary and so we must make a constant revision to change things.
Prabhupāda: This nature is temporary, but there is another nature, sanātana. That he does not know. Paras tasmāt tu bhavo anyaḥ, ‘vyakto ‘vyaktāt sanātanaḥ [Bg. 8.20]. That is standardization. Sanātana means eternal. That does not change. It is neither created or annihilated. That is standard.
Śyāmasundara: So somehow or other we must develop a…
Prabhupāda: Just like this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Five thousand years ago Arjuna became Kṛṣṇa conscious. The same Kṛṣṇa consciousness we are also preaching. This is standard. And before that Arjuna, the same Kṛṣṇa consciousness was preached to the sun-god forty millions of years ago. So this does not change. This is unchanging, avyakta. Param avyayam. Kṛṣṇa is avyayam and His consciousness is avyayam. It is not changing.
Śyāmasundara: He says that we must develop…, the whole world must develop a common faith in practical activity.
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is Kṛṣṇa’s position.
Śyāmasundara: He says that “Ours is the responsibility of accepting a precious heritage of values, accumulated by the continuous human community at great cost in effort and suffering, and to expand, conserve, transmit, and rectify these values bequeathed to us.” In other words, he says that we must take the lessons of history and build upon them in order to transmit these values and preserve them.
Prabhupāda: Yes. We are doing that. We are taking from the history of forty millions of years ago and transmitting it by guru–paramparā, evaṁ paramparā–prāptam [Bg. 4.2]. Accepted by great authorities like Vyāsa, Nārada, Devala, five thousand years, Arjuna, and later on the great ācāryas, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya. Lately, five hundred years ago, Lord Caitanya. And we are following Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura and Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura.
Śyāmasundara: So the values that are taught to us by history, are they not…
Prabhupāda: The same value. The value has not deteriorated. It has not fluctuated.
Śyāmasundara: What is that?
Prabhupāda: This Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The price has not fluctuated. The same price. Kṛṣṇa says, “The same thing I am teaching you,” in the Fourth Chapter, “which was taught to the sun-god, Vivasvān, forty millions of years ago, the same thing, because it is now broken, the chain, I am teaching you again the same thing.” So it does not change. Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that does not change.
Śyāmasundara: He would say that those values which civilizations most cherish or prize, that those are the values that we should accept. Just like that…
Prabhupāda: That is the Vedic civilization. That is the Vedic civilization. The Vedic system still stands. So many civilizations come and go on; therefore this is value in civilization.
Śyāmasundara: I think all civilizations have cherished those values at their peak.
Prabhupāda: But because they are not factual, they have failed. But Vedic civilization is still going strong.
Śyāmasundara: Just like the Christian civilization, they, at their peak, when they are most enlightened, they also prized honesty, uprightness, love thy neighbor—these different social values.
Prabhupāda: The Christian civilization has got values undoubtedly. But they do not follow it. They do not follow it. There is God consciousness, there is morality, there are ethical laws, there is acceptance of God’s authority, (indistinct), but they do not follow it. Not only Christians, even the so-called Hindus, they also do not follow. That is the world situation.
Śyāmasundara: His idea is that the problems of philosophy are rooted in social conditions, so that we should… Urgent social reform is required in order to solve the problems of philosophy. By changing social structures through education, then the problems of philosophy will be solved.
Prabhupāda: Therefore we take the standard method. Just like this varṇāśrama method-standard. We maintain it and there will be no trouble in the society. Actually, there is natural division. The intelligent class of men, the administrative class of men, the production class of men and the laborer class of men, that is prevailing all over the world. That is no doubt. But they are not doing their duty. The brāhmaṇas, the intelligent class of men, they are not following these strictly the principles, satya, śama, dama, titikṣava. Similarly the administrative class, they are not following the strictly the rules and regulations. Therefore it is fallen.
Śyāmasundara: Presumably this is from a lack of education.
Prabhupāda: Na bhajanti (Sanskrit) nainad bhrastha (Sanskrit). If you do not follow the principles… Just like the administrative class is there all over the world. The class of men who is interested in administration, they are taking vote, they are coming to governmental high, high post, but they are not following the principles of administrative class: na bhajayante avama bhṛtya (?).
Śyāmasundara: Is this the result of a lack of education?
Prabhupāda: Lack of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The so-called education is there. Lack of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The administrative class is forgetting that they are belonging to the arms of Kṛṣṇa. Mukha bāhu rūpa (?). So the administrative class is supposed to be the arms of Kṛṣṇa, but they are not thinking in terms of Kṛṣṇa, that “I am part and parcel of the body of Kṛṣṇa.” That is forgetfulness of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore they are in trouble. They are separated from Kṛṣṇa. This hand is my arm, but if it is separated from my body, it will be called the arms or the hand, but it has no value.
Śyāmasundara: Dewey’s greatest faith was in the educational system, that the educational system should reflect the real welfare of the community.
Prabhupāda: Yes. This educational system is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, tan manye adhītam uttamam. The best educational system is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So because people are being educated without Kṛṣṇa consciousness, it is becoming valueless. Therefore we are giving, I mean to say, purificatory method in every department.
Śyāmasundara: Because value equals satisfaction.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa (indistinct). Kṛṣṇa is one, and everything is zero, so if there is one, zero is added-ten, hundred, thousand-increases its value. Take out the one and it is all zero. Thousands of zeros will not carry any weight (?). So they are all zero without Kṛṣṇa.
Śyāmasundara: He says that philosophy has a social responsibility to influence intelligent management of human affairs.
Prabhupāda: That we are doing. We are asking everyone that “You become Kṛṣṇa conscious and do things intelligently, your life will be successful. You’ll be happy.” How else you’ll be happy? That is our propaganda.
Śyāmasundara: Well, we also are influencing the managers, intelligent managers of society.
Prabhupāda: That I say. The managers, when they are forgetful of Kṛṣṇa, he cannot manage. Cannot manage. That he has (indistinct) relationship. You are managing something, but you have to satisfy somebody. So that is given in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, that svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya saṁsiddhir hari–toṣanam [SB 1.2.13]. If you want perfection of your managerial work, then you should try to see whether Kṛṣṇa is satisfied. If not, you are simply wasting time. You cannot satisfy anyone. Yasmin tuṣṭe jagat tuṣṭo. If you satisfy Kṛṣṇa, then everyone will be satisfied.
Śyāmasundara: His idea was that no philosophy can be fixed or finished or absolute, but that all ideas must be continually revised.
Prabhupāda: Because they have got imperfect philosophy. Imperfect is not perfect; therefore he is thinking of advancing further to make it perfect. So without Kṛṣṇa consciousness he remains always incomplete; therefore imperfect.
Śyāmasundara: He says that “All ideas must be tested in the laboratory of educational experience, where they can be challenged, their consequences evaluated, and where they can be continuously modified or reconstructed.”
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Because you see how Arjuna was perfectly good man, because he was Kṛṣṇa conscious. He was not willing to kill his enemy. He was hesitating, “What is the use of taking this kingdom?” This is Kṛṣṇa conscious. Because the other side, they were not thinking, but Arjuna, because he is Kṛṣṇa’s devotee, he was considering, “What is the use of taking this kingdom, by killing (indistinct)?” In other words, nobody can be perfect without Kṛṣṇa consciousness. No philosopher, no scientist, no sociologist can be perfect without Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Śyāmasundara: But in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness philosophy the ideas are not to be re-evaluated. Aren’t they absolute, the philosophy of Kṛṣṇa consciousness?
Prabhupāda: Yes, the philosophy is absolute. Kṛṣṇa is absolute, so His consciousness is also absolute.
Śyāmasundara: His idea is that philosophy is always changing, that we always have to revise.
Prabhupāda: That is in the material platform. He has no information what is perfect state. He does not know. Ārādhito yadi haris tapasā tataḥ kim [Nārada-pañcarātra]. All tapasya finished. Samsiddhir hari–toṣaṇam [SB 1.2.13]. If Kṛṣṇa is satisfied, then the all duty is all right. You don’t require to satisfy anyone else. Whether Kṛṣṇa is satisfied. That’s all.
Śyāmasundara: So that’s all.
Revatīnandana: It seems like his philosophy—he knows what to do with knowledge, but he hasn’t got any knowledge.
Prabhupāda: Therefore we say, harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā: [SB 5.18.12] anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he has no good knowledge, he has no good qualification. That’s all. (end)
Link to this page: https://prabhupadabooks.com/classes/philosophy/syamasundara/john_dewey
Room Conversation
—
October 5, 1975, Mauritius
Brahmānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda will speak in English or Hindi?
Guest (1) (Indian man): …you know Hindi.
Prabhupāda: Which you…? No, just I want to end this verse. Shall I speak in Hindi or English? That I am…
Guest (1): Hindi.
Prabhupāda: Hindi. (Hindi) You read it thoroughly and you explain it either in English or Hindi, as you think befitting to your friends. So we have got so many literatures in French language. We are also asking some men from Europe. That will create some impression. Yes. White elephant. (laughter) Dancing. Everyone will purchase ticket. Yes. (Hindi) Bring some white elephant. So literature is there. But one thing is that you must be placed in sadācāra, well behaved. So you have to sacrifice, especially your long hair. And if you sacrifice your hair, we can export it and get some money. (laughter) Because in Western countries they want these hairs to make wigs. Yes. So just… (Hindi) As they have been trained up to rise early in the morning, this will give you spiritual strength. If you simply becomes a gramophone speaker, then it will not be effective. Gramophone or tape record speaker, that will not be. You must be live speaker. Your living condition should be spiritually, what is called, surcharged. So that means you must be trained up how to rise early in the morning, take your bath, cleanse yourself, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. Then you will be spiritually strong. When you are spiritually strong, if you speak something on spiritual subject matter, then it will be effective. Otherwise it will be just like tape record playing. So this is required. And you should… You are asking something?
Guest (1): No.
Prabhupāda: And gradually, when you are well behaving, then you shall be initiated to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. That will give you strength, spiritual power. Strictly observe the regulative principles—no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no intoxication, no gambling. It is very simple. Read these literatures, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, and observe these regulations. Then you will become gradually powerful. Your speeches will be effective. People will like you.
Guest (2) (Indian man): Now the program in the village, Swamijī, how to…
Prabhupāda: Village… Just like you acquire some land. That you will get. It is not very… Is it difficult?
Guest (2): No, sir.
Prabhupāda: Just we are doing so many places. So you produce your own food grains, not for making money but just for feeding yourself and the animals, cows. Keep cows, as many cows as possible, and produce, till the ground, field, and make water supply arrangement. If the investment is required, we shall do that. You have no worry about investment. We shall bring money from anywhere. But the work must be done very nicely. There must be good arrangement for water supply and for plowing and keeping the cows in order. Then you get sufficient milk, sufficient food grains and produce your own cloth. The girls and ladies, they can spine (spin) thread, and from the thread you make cloth, handlooms. So your first necessities of life, eating, and make little cottage, sleeping… And if you want sex, get yourself married, live peacefully. And when you are there you can defend yourself. So the first necessity is how to eat and how to cover. That you have to provide. That is not difficult. You can do it. And then you become peaceful, no anxiety for your maintenance. And then cultivate this spiritual knowledge the same way. Have a temple there. Have… Go on chanting, offering prasādam. You have got your food grains. Don’t be dependent on anyone else. Become self-independent. And don’t be after money. Simply produce your bare necessities of life. Keep yourself fit, strong. And chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, read book. Then you’ll grow strong. Is there any difficulty?
Guest (1): No, Swamijī.
Guest (2): To bring more people in our movement…
Prabhupāda: They should be trained up, more people. Just like I went alone in Europe and America. So I have trained them. So it will depend on your training power, the more people will be attracted. If you advertise, “Come here,” and if you have no power to attract them, then it will not be… You must be attractive to bring them. And that is spiritual attraction. You must behave yourself nicely. Then people will come. If you become purified, then naturally they will come. Just like if you prepare nice preparation with pure ghee, customers will be naturally attracted and they will pay and purchase. And if you prepare rubbish thing, one man may be cheated, but that will not be attraction for the general. Purity is required. That will attract. Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān [Bg. 10.12]. One must be pure. Then he will be able to attract. So if they see practically that “These people are very happy; they have no anxiety,” then they will be attracted. Is it not? What is the difficulty? But if you want brothel and night dancing and wine and meat-eating, then it is spoiled. It becomes impure. To become pure is not at all difficult. Rather, to become impure, it is difficult. But people, with all difficulties, they are becoming impure. Otherwise the idea which I am giving, you can start anywhere, anywhere, any part of the world. It doesn’t matter. Locally you produce your own food. You get your own cloth. Have sufficient milk, vegetables. Then what you want more? And chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is Vedic civilization: plain living, high thinking. And poor thinking, poor in thought, poor in behavior, and living with motorcar and this, that, nonsense. It is all nonsense civilization. A first-class Rolls Royce car, and who is sitting there? A third-class negro. This is going on. You’ll find these things in Europe and America. This is going on. A first-class car and a third-class negro. That’s all. Is it not?
Guest (3) (Indian man): Car is a necessity, Swamijī, don’t you think so? Car is a necessity.
Prabhupāda: Not necessary. What is the use of car? If you locate yourself to get everything, your necessity, then where is the use of car? If you require car, you have a bullock cart. That’s all. Why should you hanker after petrol, mobile (Mobil?) oil, machine, this, that, so many things. Why?
Guest (3): Yes, but don’t you think that it would be impossible for you to come mostly?
Prabhupāda: No, no. So long it is not available, we must take the best advantage. That is another thing. But gradually we shall develop a society that all these unnecessary rubbish things should be rejected. That is the idea. Or those who are interested, let them manufacture car; we take advantage. We don’t bother ourself how to manufacture car. Ajāgara–vṛtti. Ajāgara–vṛtti, the idea is… Ajāgara means the snake. So a mouse makes a hole in the field to live very peacefully. So, and he enters the hole, and a snake gets the information and he comes, enters the hole. He eats the snake… The snake eats the mouse and lives peacefully. So let this rascal manufacture motorcar. When we require, we take from them and ride away. We are not going to manufacture. There will be some rascals. Let them do that, mouse. We enter as snake. (laughter) That’s all. We are doing that. We are doing that. I did not manufacture this house, but somebody, some mouse, has done. (laughter) And we have entered it, that’s all. That’s all. This is going on all over the world. You know George Harrison? He has earned money with so great hard labor, and he has given us a house in London, fifty-five lakhs’ worth. Another boy, Alfred Ford, he’s the great grandson of Mr. Henry Ford. He has given. He is giving still money. He is prepared with all his money. So those who are after money, material things, we have to induce them that “Spend for me,” that’s all, and let him earn. So far we are concerned, we shall live very simple life, simply in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is brāhmaṇa. Brāhmaṇa does not go to construct big, big house. He simply constructs his character, and the other kṣatriyas and vaiśyas, they offer him, “Please come here and sit down.” Therefore the division is… One who is unable to become a brāhmaṇa, let him become kṣatriya. If he cannot become kṣatriya, let him become a vaiśya. Otherwise let him remain a śūdra. But there should be ideal class. So we are trying to create an ideal society of brāhmaṇas. Then people will be benefited. And if everyone is śūdra, rascal, then what people will be benefited? They do not know how to live. The brāhmaṇas will give idea, “Live like this. You will be happy.”
Guest (1): Swamijī, I propose one thing: To influence people more and more in the villages.
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the attraction, villagers.
Guest (1): Yes. We should go there and live with them for…
Prabhupāda: Yes. I have already suggested that you take land and be an ideal community.
Guest (1): No, if we don’t get land, Swamijī. I would suggest if, for example, one week, four or three, Swamijī… (Hindi) What he wants to say…
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Very good idea, very good idea.
Guest (1): That would be mercy to make the people conscious. And then again and again have here a same thing and then they would be influenced.
Prabhupāda: Good idea. It is very good idea.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The idea was in Hindi. It was in Hindi. We don’t understand.
Prabhupāda: In the village… I shall speak in Hindi?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In English so we can understand.
Prabhupāda: I am speaking in… So in the village, if these people go, they cannot do anything because they cannot speak in Hindi.
Guest (1): No, we should be there to organize. We will be there to organize.
Prabhupāda: Yes. If you organize, then that will be nice.
Guest (1): For example, I propose that Swamijī, sitting there, please tell me and I will tell the people they are the leader, to organize a Bhagavad-gītā in English, because Swamijī speaks English.
Prabhupāda: They can understand English?
Guest (1): Yes.
Prabhupāda: Then do it.
Guest (1): Yes, there are many people.
Prabhupāda: They can understand?
Guest (1): Yes.
Prabhupāda: Then, English edition we have got. French edition… You can speak in French and explain. He can speak in English.
Guest (1): Yes. We can stay in a village for about seven days or eight days, so that every night, for example, as we do it here, we can do it in a village.
Prabhupāda: So if you can organize like that, then I will come personally. I will go and encourage you.
Guest (1): I can organize it, Swamijī. There are many people who would like to see you, to talk to you, and to… Not especially to you but to all the swamijis.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So if you think so, then I can come back again. I’ll come back.
Guest (1): Yes, Swamijī. Do you want me to… I know there is one… Not only one, but if you want me to organize when you come and you would be…
Prabhupāda: Yes. My point is: if necessary, I can also come. I can go into the village. There is no…
Guest (1): If you spent at least one month in these countries, Swamijī, I could…
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Whenever you will say. If you say, I can stay just now one month.
Guest (1): Yes?
Prabhupāda: Yes. I can stay.
Guest (1): Yes, I may organize something there. Then I bring you there.
Prabhupāda: I am going to Johannesburg today. If you think that my presence will be beneficial, then after a week I can come back.
Guest (1): Yes, Swamijī. Therefore I…
Prabhupāda: This is a very good program. Very good.
Guest (1): I shall tell them. There are many youngsters.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. So if you think my presence will be very beneficial, then after one week I shall come back. Our life is dedicated for this purpose. Whenever the… Ānukulyena kṛṣṇanuśilanam [Cc. Madhya 19.167]. Wherever there is opportunity, take advantage of it. That is our mission. Little light-fan it to make it fire. That is our mission. I welcome all these suggestions from you. Now you be serious and do it. If you like, I shall come back after a week.
Guest (1): Yes. I have contacted two president of village. For example, Iskadye(?) There is a village known as Iskadye. Now there is Marshali.(?)
Prabhupāda: And we have no distinction that “He is Hindu. He is Muslim. He is Christian.” No. Everyone is welcome to take this culture, education. We have no such sectarian view. No.
Devotee: Excuse me. Your idea is a program similar to what we’ve done or been doing previously?
Guest (1): No, Swamijī. Previously you have been only going one day in a village. Only one day means two hours or like this. People are influenced…
Prabhupāda: Once or continual. Yes. That is required.
Guest (1): Yes. A continual program.
Prabhupāda: “Knock, knock, knock, and the door will open.” That philosophy.
Guest (1): They have been a little in the villages with books and doing saṅkīrtana in the street. That is very good. But it…
Prabhupāda: Yes. Do saṅkīrtana. The villagers will join.
Guest (1): But at the same time, if we collect all the people together and put it in place and talk to them every day, continually for seven days or eight days…
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. It is possible. These are all practical proposals. There is nothing impossibility.
Guest (1): Yes. Don’t you think so, Swamijī? I have proposed…
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Paṇḍāls?
Guest (1): Yes. We may build paṇḍāls also. That will be… Because…
Prabhupāda: Paṇḍāl or no paṇḍāl. You can sit on open place. There is no harm.
Cyavana: We can build a paṇḍāl in one day and put up.
Prabhupāda: In villages we can sit down underneath a tree. That is paṇḍāl. Why should you unnecessarily spend money? Just cleanse the ground and sit down. That’s all. Makes everything simplified.
Guest (1): If it’s raining there, Swamijī. Rainy days.
Prabhupāda: Ācchā. Rainy day.
Guest (1): For that we need paṇḍāls.
Prabhupāda: So think. Kṛṣṇa is giving you intelligence. Think over, and Kṛṣṇa will give you intelligence.
Guest (1): I don’t know whether it is practical, Swamijī. That is another suggestion. Like you are here for about seven days. Don’t you think it would be good if you come here and you call people, youngsters, for example, those who are interested in the Vedic culture, would come here, in any place, for about seven days or eight days to stay with you and to learn what you want to say.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Like a camp.
Guest (1): Like a camp, yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They are welcome.
Guest (1): You would prepare… At least every individual get one young man who will come.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Yes. Very good suggestion. Immediately accepted. Oh, yes. I speak only selected young men, and they will speak. Yes. That is wanted.
Guest (1): And it will be easier for us to go to their village.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest (1): They would guide us.
Prabhupāda: That is very good suggestion.
Guest (1): When do you think that you could do it?
Prabhupāda: Yes. I can immediately begin. Yes.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I can give you our address in Johannesburg, and you can write letter trying to organize it.
Prabhupāda: How long it takes to go from here?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It’s just a few hours. Johannesburg letter would only take two, three days.
Prabhupāda: So you keep the address and be in correspondence.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Best if everything is set up beforehand, so when Prabhupāda comes it is already organized.
Guest (1): Yes. We can put it in newspaper.
Prabhupāda: But one thing you must be assured, that if you can introduce this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, everyone will be happy. Be rest assured. That’s a fact.
Guest (1): Because if you go to the villages…
Prabhupāda: Everyone will be happy. Men and animal, everyone will be happy. Even the trees and plants, they will be happy.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We could have big saṅkīrtana parties in the villages here too.
Brahmānanda: How is it that the trees and plants will be happy?
Prabhupāda: Because they will hear Hare Kṛṣṇa. Not only trees and plants. The insects and everyone, they will have the opportunity of hearing Hare Kṛṣṇa. That will benefit.
Guest (1): If we have got this act, Swamijī, here itself we can organize it. For example, we are getting holidays in November, school holidays, twenty-first November. So we can put it in the newspaper that “Those who are interested, young people from fifteen or twenty to thirty or forty, these people can send their letters and they would come. So we can answer them through newspaper, also radio, through TV, so that they would come…
Prabhupāda: Yes. If you do organize, then I shall stay. It is very good program. Let us give it some shape with your good cooperation. So Kṛṣṇa is giving you intelligence. He is giving so nice program. So do it practically.
Guest (1): And we can conquer out there.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. Paraṁ vijayate śrī–kṛṣṇa–saṅkīrtanam. Śrī-kṛṣṇa–saṅkīrtana is so powerful that it will conquer. It will be victorious. So I am very glad to meet you. And do this program. And if you like, I shall come back after a week and do. Utilize me in this way, I shall be very glad. That’s all right.
Devotee: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end)
Link to this page: https://prabhupadabooks.com/conversations/1975/oct/mauritius/october/05/1975
Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 1.16.4
—
Los Angeles, January 1, 1974
Pradyumna: Translation: “Once when Mahārāja Parīkṣit was on his way to conquer the world, he saw the master of Kali–yuga, who was lower than a śūdra, disguised as a king and hurting a cow and a bull by his leg. The King at once caught hold of him to deal sufficient punishment.” [SB 1.16.4]
Prabhupāda: So it was the duty of the king to go on tour and see persons who are actually not abiding by the laws of Vedic principles. This is the duty of the king. Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that cātur–varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa–karma–vibhāgaśaḥ: [Bg. 4.13] “In the human society I have divided four classes of men.” Cātur–varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam [Bg. 4.13]. Kṛṣṇa says, “I have done it.”
So by nature, there are four classes of men. Anywhere you go you’ll find four classes of men. First-class, intelligent men. In whichever you take, you’ll find not all of them of the same category. First class, second class, third class and fourth class. First class means the most intelligent class, scientists, philosophers, like that; mathematicians, great religionists. They’re first-class men. The second class, administrator, to see that the government is going nicely, people are not unhappy, people are not suffering from thieves and rogues. This is the first business. Good government means that people will think that they’re secure, their property and person is secure. There will be no harm. Not very many years ago, say about hundred years ago, in India the native states, the rule was that if something is lying on the streets, valuable or invaluable, so nobody should touch it. The person who has lost or who has left that thing there, he would come and pick it up. You cannot touch. That was the law. And if one was caught, a thief, his hands will be cut off. In Kashmir state this was the rule. As soon as a thief is arrested and if he’s proved that he has stolen, the only punishment is cut his throat, aḥ, cut his hands. Bas. Exemplary punishment so that nobody will dare to steal. So this is second class, administrators. And the third class are to produce money—businessmen, mercantile. Money is also required. So without money nothing can be done, so that is not… But that is the occupation of…, the third class take. And the fourth class, śūdra. They cannot take any post as intelligent class or administrator class or money-producing class. They are simply servant, help others, śūdra. The śūdra was not meant for taking the political part.
Therefore it is said here nṛpa–liṅga–dharaṁ śūdram. Nṛpa–liṅga–dharam. Liṅga means, real meaning is gender. Just the masculine gender, feminine gender. And the other meaning is sign. Just like there are signs, certain signs, we can understand here is a male, here is a female. By the signs. So liṅgam means “signs,” “symptom.” So nṛpa–liṅga–dharam. Śūdra, actually he was a śūdra, but he dressed like a king. Just like if a woman dresses like a man, that is artificial. Or a man dresses like woman, that is also artificial. So everyone has his original dress and position. There, because a śūdra took the dress of a king, therefore it is called nṛpa–liṅga–dharam. Artificially, he was dressed like a king. That is the position of Kali–yuga. Now the government men, they are elected by votes. People do not consider whether he’s a brāhmaṇa or kṣatriya or vaiśya or śūdra. As he likes… People are śūdras. Kalau śūdra–sambhavaḥ. In the Kali–yuga everyone is a śūdra. Therefore naturally he will elect one śūdra. The śūdra is not fit for government management. As such we find so many difficulties in the government because the head or the head man, they are all śūdras. They have dressed like administrator, but they are śūdras. This is the symptom of Kali–yuga. There is no brāhmaṇa, there is no kṣatriya, there is no vaiśyas. Maybe a few vaiśyas, and all śūdras. A brāhmaṇa means the good quality, first-class quality. That is very, very rare to be found.
So it was the business of the king to see that things are going on. First of all, there is classification: intelligent class or brāhmaṇa; and the administrator class or kṣatriya; and the mercantile class, money-producing class. So everyone is engaged, and he’s doing his own business. But this division must be there. Without division the society will be in chaos. The example is given… I have several times mentioned that, that just like in this body, there is division: the head division, the arms division, the belly division, and the leg division. They are all required. You cannot say that simply legs will do. What about the head and arms? “I don’t require.” That is not… That is dead body. That is dead body. Any part of the body, you cannot miss. They must be all in order; then your body is fit. Similarly, in the human society, the social body, there must be these classes: the head class, the arm class, the belly class and the leg class. Very scientific. You cannot simply… If you have got intelligent class of men, but nobody is helping him, then what, what will be the use of intelligence? The intelligent class must be there, but to help him the less intelligent class men also required. Just like if there are only intelligent class, that will be chaos. Nobody will care for anyone. Sometimes we’ll find in our society, all intelligent class, and they fight each other. That’s all. Everyone is thinking, “I am intelligent. I am boss. I must order you.” And the other is thinking, “Why you shall be boss? I am also boss.” So (laughs) fighting will go on. So this is going on. At the present moment there is no intelligent class of men. But kalau śūdra–sambhavaḥ. Therefore things are all in chaos. Everywhere you go, any part of the world, nobody is happy, either in family or community and society, nationwide, you take. Everyone is distrust, unhappiness, godlessness. Because the intelligent class of men is finished.
So the king, his duty was that if you are professing yourself as a brāhmaṇa, then it is the king’s duty to see that you are acting as a brāhmaṇa. Brāhmaṇa is not by birth but guṇa–karma–vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. Guṇa means quality. And karma, and work also. Simply “I have got now sacred thread, I have become brāhmaṇa, doubly initiated; now my business is finished. I can work, I can do whatever we like, like less than śūdra, caṇḍāla.” No, sir. If you are initiated as a brāhmaṇa, you must act as a brāhmaṇa. Truthfulness—satyaṁ śamo damas titikṣā ārjavaṁ jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma–karma [Bg. 18.42]—everything is there. A brāhmaṇa must be truthful. That is the first business of a brāhmaṇa—truthful. He’ll speak truth even before an enemy. Nobody speaks truth before an enemy because he wants to hide something. But brāhmaṇa’s business is to become truthful even before an enemy. That is stated.
There are many instances. Just like Satyakāma-jābāla, a boy, Satyakāma, he went to Gautama Muni: “Sir, I want to become your disciple.” “Oh, very good. Are you brāhmaṇa or brāhmaṇa’s son?” Formerly, in Vedic ways, nobody could be accepted as a disciple unless he’s born in high class family, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya—especially brāhmaṇa. So this question was asked, “Which family you belong to?” So he said, “I do not know what is my classification.” “Now, who is your father?” “That I do not know.” “Ask your mother.” Then he went to his mother, “Who is my father?” “My dear boy, I do not know.” So actually his mother was maidservant. So maidservants have so many men, and by whom she was pregnant she cannot remember. She also told the truth. And this Satyakāma, he also came to Gautama Muni, he said, “Sir, my father, my mother also do not know who is my father.” “Oh, that’s all right. You are a brāhmaṇa, because you are truthful. You do not hide yourself, that ‘I am a prostitute’s son.’ You say this is the position. ‘I am plainly speaking that my mother does not know who is my father. I do not know!’ ” So because he was truthful… That is the symptom of brāhmaṇa. He accepted, “Yes, I’ll accept you as my disciple.”
Indian: Prabhupāda, how did Kāma…?
Prabhupāda: You do… Don’t disturb. So this is the process, that the four castes—brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya… They were caste system when they actually things were going on. Just like a carpenter. His son naturally becomes a carpenter by seeing the father’s work. So he can be very easily classified as a carpenter. Similarly, formerly, the brāhmaṇa family, kṣatriya family, vaiśya family, they were following the rules and regulations in such a way that naturally a brāhmaṇa’s son became a brāhmaṇa. Because he has learned already the brāhmaṇa principle from the parent. So naturally little touch will make him… That is initiation. Even though one is born in a brāhmaṇa family, why does he required initiation and sacred thread ceremony? Because simply by taking birth in a brāhmaṇa family one does not become a brāhmaṇa. He has to be raised to the brāhmaṇa standard. Otherwise, there was no initiation, there was no necessity of initiation or offering the sacred thread. That is called saṁskāra. Otherwise, by birth everyone is śūdra. Janmanā jāyate śūdraḥ saṁskārād bhaved dvijaḥ. So it is very good that one has taken his birth in a brāhmaṇa family, but provided he has learned the brāhmaṇa’s activities nicely from the parent, he is brāhmaṇa. Kiṁ punar brāhmaṇaḥ puṇyaḥ(?).
But if he deviates from the family principle… Just like in the śāstra it is said that in a higher class family, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, especially brāhmaṇa, if the garbhādhāna-saṁskāra is not accepted, the whole family becomes śūdra. Garbhādhāna-saṁskāra. That means begetting the child, there is a ceremony which is called garbhādhāna-saṁskāra. So in the Kali–yuga practically no saṁskāra is performed. Therefore in the śāstra it is said kalau śūdra–sambhavaḥ. So Vedic process, Vedic principles of accepting. It is not possible in this Kali–yuga. Because the garbhādhāna-saṁskāra is not there. In nobody’s family there the garbhādhāna-saṁskāra is taken. Sex life is also regulated by garbhādhāna-saṁskāra. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, dharmāviruddhaḥ kāmo ‘smi. Aviruddha, “Sex life which is not against the religious principles, that I am. That sex life I am,” Kṛṣṇa says. “I am that sex life.” That is godly. But sex life for sense gratification or for prostitution, that is not Kṛṣṇa. That is Kali. So this is the process.
So it was the duty of the king to see that if a man is professing himself as a brāhmaṇa, he must act as a brāhmaṇa. That was the duty. Otherwise, he should be punished. Just like here. This śūdra, he was presenting himself as a kṣatriya, nṛpa–liṅga–dharam. Therefore he was punished. Not that the king is callous: “Let him do whatever he likes.” Just like now our, everywhere, the government, it doesn’t care whether you are acting as a brāhmaṇa, śūdra, or whatever nonsense you are doing. Doesn’t care. “You pay me tax, that’s all.” Bring your tax, income tax, and everything, then you are free, whatever you are doing. That was not the duty of the king. The king’s duty is to see that actually one who is presenting himself as brāhmaṇa, he’s acting as a brāhmaṇa, he has acquired the qualities of a brāhmaṇa. Guṇa–karma–vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. He has got the quality and acting. Similarly, a kṣatriya also, he must act as a kṣatriya. Similarly, vaiśyas. These are all, statements are there in the Bhagavad-gītā, you know. Kṛṣi-gorakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya–karma svabhāva–jam [Bg 18.44]. Śauryaṁ tejo yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam īśvara-bhāvaś ca kṣātraṁ karma svabhāva–jam. Everything is given. Paricaryātmakaṁ karma śūdrasyāpi svabhāva–jam. Everything is given there. So it is the duty of the government, that this man is professing as a brāhmaṇa, as a kṣatriya or a vaiśya, whether he is acting, or whether he’s cheating others. No cheating will be allowed. That is government’s duty.
So here, this man was cheating. Because here it is said: nṛpa–liṅga–dharam. He was dressed like a king. Just like king is very gorgeously dressed. But his bodily feature, he was a black man. The black man means śūdra. The brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, they were not black. But the śūdras were black. From external point of view, these things are there. Śūdras, another name is kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa means black. So this black man was dressed like a king, and what was he, was he going to do? Ghnantaṁ go-mithunaṁ padā. He was trying to kill a pair of cow and bull. So naturally he could understand. Parīkṣit Mahārāja was going on tour, and on his way he saw that this rascal is dressed like a king and he’s trying to kill cows and bulls. Oh, he immediately chastised him. Nṛpa—he has dressed like a king, but his business is like śūdra or less than śūdra. Butchers, butchers cannot be intelligent class of men, brāhmaṇa. A brāhmaṇa is not butcher. Neither a kṣatriya. Kṣatriya fights, kills, but in regular religious fight. Not that by whimsically he’ll fight and kill men. No. So, here it is said, nijagrāhaujasā vīraḥ. A kṣatriya must be vīra, hero. Whenever there is injustice, he must immediately come forward. “Why injustice? These poor animals, they are also my subject. How you can kill them? He’s also born in this land.” “National” means one is born in that particular land. So they are also born in this land. Why he should be treated differently? Just like in your country, even one Indian gets his child here, the child is counted as USA-born, US citizen, eh? Immediately. So if that is the law, that anyone born in this land should be treated as national, what is this law that the cows and the bulls born in that land, they are to be slaughtered? What is this law?
So it is the duty of the king, emperor… Immediately detected that “Why these poor animals are being killed? They are also subject to the laws of the state. As the human being requires protection, similarly, the cows… Not only cows, everyone requires protection by the government. Why they should be not protected? Therefore because the protection was not given to the cows and the bulls, he immediately took him, that “This rascal is not a kṣatriya; he’s a śūdra. In the dress of a king, he’s doing mischievous activities.” Immediately punished him. This is government’s duty. If anyone… Just like, anyone is breaking law, it is the duty of the government to chastise him, similarly, the law should be… Exact good government law means that anyone who kills an animal without sanction… Of course, they now give sanction, that “Yes, you can kill as many animals in the slaughterhouse as you like.” Because the government is śūdra. Government is not kṣatriya. So therefore is no protection. Why animal? Even a human being, if he’s being killed on the street, on the Broadway, nobody cares for him. So this is the position. But Parīkṣit Mahārāja was not such a king or such a head of the executive… He immediately punished. Therefore it is mentioned specially: ojasā vīraḥ kalim. Kali is to be punished.
The Kali begins with this animal killing. That is Kali–yuga. Meat-eating. Therefore, to avoid the influence of Kali we have to give up this habit. The four things are Kali’s disciple, friends. We have already discussed this. So one friend is this meat-eating problem, the butchers, Kali’s friends. And the liquor distiller, he’s also Kali’s friend. And the gamblers or the gambling house maintainer. And prostitute house maintainer. These are friends of Kali. Now you will find all over the world these things are very prominent-clubs and butcherhouse and liquor house and gambling house. Therefore the whole atmosphere is Kali.
So because it is now Kali age, just like winter season, everywhere is cold, chillest, so similarly because this is the age of Kali therefore even in India… This king, Mahārāja Parīkṣit, was in India. He wanted to chastise this rascal in the dress of a king and attempting (to) kill cows. So this was in India. Maybe in other place also, because the king was touring. So not only in India, all over the world the Vedic civilization was there. Five thousand years ago, everywhere the… All people used to follow the Vedic principles. That is the proof. Because the king was following the Vedic principles. So this cow-killing by the Kali, it is said it was done on the border of India, somewhere near Sindhu Pradesh, Afghanistan, like that. So anyway, it was on this planet and he wanted to prohibit. But India is the center. This king, Mahārāja Parīkṣit, his headquarters also was Hastināpura, near New Delhi at the present moment. Hastināpura. There is a place still, Hastināpura. There is one broken fort also. They say this fort belonged to the Pāṇḍavas. People go there to see. Anyway, now the king was so strict that even outside India some cow was being attempted to be killed, he immediately took his sword to punish him. Now in India they are killing ten thousand cows daily. This is Kali–yuga. That… Still, they have got some sentiment about cow-killing. There was about say five or six years ago, there was good agitation. But who cares for that? Because the government is śūdra: nṛpa–liṅga. They have taken the position of government, but they are all full of śūdras. Now in India not only killing cows… We had never seen… In Bombay this time I saw in our Juhu-big, big signboards: Beef shop. Beef shop. So Hindus are there also now taking. I asked one lady, she was meat-eater. So I asked her, “Do you eat cow’s meat, cow’s flesh?” “Yes, sometimes.” So this is Kali–yuga. Now government is encouraging drinking and meat-eating. And illicit sex, that is, that has become now a common affair, anywhere you go. Why should you should have to go to brothel? Even big, big, other places. I don’t wish to mention. You see.
So this is the age of Kali. So simply full of sinful activities, that’s all. That is Kali–yuga. But sinful activities will not help us. That they have no brain to understand. You have to purify yourself. Sinful activities will involve you more and more in the cycle of birth and death. You will take sometimes birth as a king or as a demigod, and sometimes as the worm of the stool. Because according to your karma, you will get next body. Karmaṇā daiva–netreṇa [SB 3.31.1]. Therefore the process is at least don’t act sinfully. Then you will get higher-class birth. Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva–sthāḥ [Bg. 14.18]. You will get chance of taking your birth in higher planetary system where the standard of living is many, many thousands better than this planet. Just like Svargaloka, Janaloka. From our śāstra we understand that the inhabitants of Candraloka, moon planet, they live for ten thousands of years, but these rascals are going there. They do not find any living entity. So that is the contradiction. But we believe that in the moon planet… And why we shall not believe? If the living entities are found everywhere, so why, what moon planet has done that there should be no living entity? From our experience we can see living entity is there on the land, in the air, in the water, even in the fire. So every planet is made of these five elements: earth, water, fire, air, sky. So we find by practical experience that in the water there is living entity, on the land there is living entity, within the land there is living entity. So why in the moon planet or other planet there should be no living entities? That’s a wrong theory.
Long, long ago, sometimes in 1930, I had a talk in Allahabad with a great scientist Dr. Shah. He said that there is no reason to disbelieve that in other planets there is no living entity. And recently one Russian scientist also said that there are many planets where very, very intelligent class of men are there. So that is our theory, that the… if you go to the higher planetary system, you will find more comfortable standard of life, the duration of life is very long, and the people are very, very intelligent. They are called demigods. So whatever it may be, we have to follow our own principles, and there is no reason to disbelieve that in other planets there are no living entities. We cannot accept it.
So anyway, in every planet there is kingdom or there is government. Because in the Bhagavad-gītā we understand, Kṛṣṇa says,
imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ
proktavān aham avyayam
vivasvān manave prāha
manur ikṣvākave ‘bravīt
[Bg. 4.1]
Kṛṣṇa said that “This philosophy, this Bhagavad-gītā yoga system, I first of all explained to the sun-god, whose name is Vivasvān.” He spoke the same principle to his son Manu, and Manu also spoke the same principle to his son, Ikṣvāku. So Ikṣvāku came from the sun planet. He happens to be the grandson of Vivasvān. So how you can say that in the sun planet there is no possibility of life? We get the history. And if you say that “In fire how one can live?” No. As we see that in water some other living entities can live, similarly, I may not be able to live in the fire, but there are other living entities who can live there. That should be the right conclusion. Because fire is as good another material element as the water is. As water is also one of the material elements, fire is also one of the eight material elements. So if we can see by our practical experience, there are living entities in the water, so why not living entities in the fire? And in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that living entity, this spiritual spark, is not affected by material influence. In the Vedas also it is…, asaṅgo ‘yaṁ puruṣaḥ. It has nothing to do with this material condition. Adāhya. This special word is used that it cannot burned by the fire. Aśoṣya, it cannot be dried up by air. Acchedya, it cannot be cut into pieces. These things are there. So we are firmly convinced that in the sun planet there is also living entity, and the king or the president there is called Vivasvān, his name is Vivasvān. And our gāyatrī–mantra is worshiping the sun planet. Oṁ bhūr bhuvaḥ svaḥ tat savitur vareṇyaṁ bhargo devasya dhīmahi. So this is the Vedic conception. Every planet there is king, and the king’s duty is to see that everyone is executing his professional occupational duty.
So Mahārāja Parīkṣit also, he used to go for examining. Therefore it is said, digvijaye kvacit. Not that at a particular time he went out to, for touring. But he was going, say, yearly, or six-monthly. And one of his tour he found that a person dressed like a king was attempting to kill cows, and he punished him. So this is the statement.
Thank you very much. (end)
Link to this page: https://prabhupadabooks.com/classes/sb/1/16/4/los_angeles/january/01/1974
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