An Outline for a Discussion on the Subject of “How and from Where Does the Spirit Soul Fall Down to the Material  World?”

#Jiva tattva

#Jivatattva

 

 

 

An Outline for a Discussion on the Subject of “How and from Where Does the Spirit Soul Fall Down to the

Material  World?”

 

by  Suhotra  Swami

 

 

[Note: In brackets like these, references to the “Notes and Quotes” outline will be made]

 

1. Prosand  Cons  of  such  a 

 

1. Pro: devotees always inquire about this question; they are often quite misinformed (don’t know what Srila Prabhupada says about it); so, though this speaker doesn’t claim to have all the final answers that will settle all doubts, he has assembled a lot of bonafide information, and this will be helpful to better understand the subject matter.

 

1. Con: Deductive “speculation” on this subject seems unavoidable, even when armed with full information, so errors may creep in; Srila Prabhupada said it’s more or

 

less  a  waste  of  time  (vide  letter  to  Upendra,  27  Oct.  1969).

 

1. Some theories addressing the question of how and from where did we fall down. Overriding consideration: we must not look to put the blame for our falldown on Krishna.

 

1. We fell  from  the  brahmajyoti  (aruhya  ..)

 

1. This theory was not favored by Srila Prabhupada, because the brahmajyoti is impersonal; accepting this theory implies our original position is impersonal. But he did

not  completely  reject  it,  either.

2. Examples:

 

1. Theconversation  transcript  circulated  out

 

of  L.A.  around  8  years  ago.

3. B. 3.25.29,  purport,  last  paragraph.

 

1. Letter to  Harer  Nama,  21    1968  [V.A.]

 

1. Isopanisad?

 

1. We fell from the santa-rasa (not being very engaged there, we got bored).

 

1. This explanation also is not very satisfactory, as evinced from a letter to Jagadish, 27 Feb. 1970 [V.C.]
2. “Giving up all desires not connected with Krishna is the business of one who is in the santa-rasa. Only

• devoteeof  Krishna  can  be  situated  on  that 

 

He is thus called a santa-rasa-bhakta.” (C.C. Madhya 19.214) C. We fell directly from a full-blown rasa in the

spiritual  world  (our  constitutional  position).

 

1. From Srila Prabhupada’s books and letters, we get two views.

 

2. The unsupportive  view  is  found  in  two  purports:

 

3. B. 3.16.12,  purport.
4. B. 3.25.29  (last  paragraph).

3. The supportive  view:

 

1. Letter to  Jagadisha,  27    1970  (cited

 

above).

1. Letter to  Jagadisha  25  April  1970  [V.E]

 

• Why is  Srila  Prabhupada  seemingly  equivocal?
  1. Hedoesn’t  know  the  answer 

 

1. It’s not important, so he’s answering without much consideration for apparent contradictions.

 

1. There are a number of factors involved, and at different times Srila Prabhupada has addressed different factors.

 

1. I take (C) as the answer, and have developed a synthetic approach to the problem.

 

1. In this approach, we won’t be attempting to figure out how the living entity fell down to the material world from gopi-bhava. That assumption, just like the assumption that we must have fallen from the brahmajyoti,

 

overlooks  much  evidence  Srila  Prabhupada  has  given  us.

 

2. At least one can listen to this presentation for an education in what Srila Prabhupada says on this subject. One may still reserve one’s own opinion on the synthetic framework itself.

 

3. As we go through the presentation, we can discuss. We have up to three days.

 

4. The synthetic reasoning of the evidence pivots on the allowance of the choice of the living entity between maya and Krishna. Without allowing for choice, we are

 

only left with an appeal to the inconceivable – which is what the mayavadis do also. There’s no choice between maya and Krishna in Goloka that we know of or can conceive of. Goloka is not a marginal realm, it’s the absolute highest realm of God consciousness. In my mind there’s

 

• philosophical difficulty with assuming that we “began” in our eternal rasa and then fell down (though, in my synthetic approach I don’t rule this out). The problem is, love of Krishna is itself the result of a choice. It is voluntary. So to say we fell down from pure love of Krishna because of some accident seems to indicate we weren’t aware of such a possibility of falldown before we fell (the “purify our love even more” theory. And it also seems to aim the blame at Krishna, which we’re not going to do here, because Srila Prabhupada always takes the standpoint that it’s our fault. For those who say

 

I’m begging the question by preserving choice by restricting the examination to the marginal region where falldown is clearly possible, I ask – from where did the opportunity

 

and choice to fall down arise if we all begin automatically on the highest platform? Where is the choice to love Krishna if we all begin automatically in a loving rasa

 

with Him? Anyway, this seminar is not attempting to explain how we moved from a fully-devloped rasa with Krishna to

 

the marginal position, but it will discuss how the living entity fell from the spiritual world to the material world as Srila Prabhupada has given evidence.

 

1. Evidence to show that the junction of the fall is from Mahavishnu:
   1969. Letterto  Upendra,  27  October 

 

5. Brahma-samhita 5.10, purport [IV.C]. Living entities are tathasta (marginal), and Maha-Vishnu is situated on the dividing line. Please keep in mind that Goddess Ramaa-devi and Lord Maha-Vishnu are non-different from Radha-Krishna – this is how They appear from the marginal point of view.

 

1. References to vishnu’s glancing over Maya – have them listed on board already.

 

3. Bhedha-drsya as exact dividing line between spiritual and material world (3.32.12-15). Dialectical Spiritualism quote [III.A]

 

3. Brahman-Pradhan (S.B. 3.26.10, purport; B.S. 5.8, purport [IV.B]; letter to Bhagavandas, 2. March 1970 [V.D]).
4. Transcendental (devotional) santa-rasa and nondevotional (mundane) neutrality.
   1. C. Madhya  24.163-164:  13  types  of  santa-

bhaktas.

2. Paramatma-sayuja: C.  Madhya  6.269.

 

3. Devotional and nondevotional anandamaya; S.B. 6.15.12-15 for Panchasikha-acarya (Madhva philosophy ref.); B.S. 5.22 [IV.H]

 

1. The question  of  choice:  as  offered  to  us  by  Maha-Vishnu.

 

3. Soul never  out  of  consciousness:  B.3.7.6,  purport.

 

1. Letter to  Jagadisha,  25  April  1970,  [V.E.]
2. B. 5.6,  purport  [IV.A].
3. Maha-Vishnu/Shankarshan/Balaram as  adi-guru.

 

1. Glance at maya, then we saw: Dialectical Spiritualism, page 216 [III.B]

 

 

1. Choiceas  offered  by  Garbhodakashayi  Vishnu.

 

3. (Put all this on the board:) Appearance of “golden sperms” (or eggs) within body of Maha-Vishnu: S.B. 3.26.51-

• [I.N]; S.B. 2.10.13 [I.K]; B.S. 5.13 [IV.D]; Hiranyagarbha as prime projenitor: B.S. 5.15 [IV.E]; Hiranyagarbha as pure consciousness: S.B. 3.26.21-24 [I.M]; living entities merged there in

self-enjoyment:  B.S.  5.22,  purport  [IV.H];  worshippers

 

of Hiranyagarbha merge with Brahma and go with him to Maha-purusha: S.B. 3.32.8, 3.32.10.

 

5. Choice of living entity in this state: B.S. 5.16, purport [IV.G] and B.S. 5.19, purport [IV.I]; Yoga-nidra is Rama-devi (B.S. 5.12 [IV.F]).

 

VII. Third chance, with Paramatma in human form: S.B. 4.29.4, purport.

 

——————————————————————————-

 

Notes  and  Quotes  for  “Falldown”  Seminar

 

 

1. From Srimad  Bhagavatam:

 

3. bheda-drstya, from S.B. 3.32.12-15 (purport): “Here the word bhedy-drstya occurs because Brahma has a slight inclination to think that he is as independent as Rudra. Sometimes Brahma thinks that he is independent of the Supreme Lord, and the worshipper also thinks that Brahma

 

is independent. For this reason, after the destruction of the material world, when there is again creation by the interaction of the material modes of nature, Brahma

 

comes back. Although Brahma reaches the Supreme Personality of Godhead as the first purusa incarnation, Maha-Visnu,

 

who is full with transcendental qualities, he cannot stay in the spiritual world.”

3. The “Brahma”  question:  32.9,  purport.

 

4. Falldown due to choice; first accepts human body: S.B. 4.29.4., whole purport.
5. B. 3.16.12,  purport:  Jaya  and  vijaya  falldown

an  accident;  one  who  has  entered  Vaikutna  never  falls  down.

 

3. Worshippers of Hiranyagarbha go with Brahma to spiritual world: 3.32.8., purport.

 

3. How living entity falls down: 3.25.29, purport (last paragraph).

 

3. Perhaps useful – soul never out of consciousness: S.B.3.7.6.
4. Soul product  of  tatastha-sakti:  B.  3.7.9  and

purport.

 

3. Creation (beginning with glance of Vishnu over maya): 3.5.23-51 and 3.6.1-10.

 

2. B. 2.4.23, 28: Brahma created using limbs of Lord in sacrifice.
3. “Seminal symbol”  verse:  B.2.10.12.
4. Pradhana: B.  3.26.10,  purport.

 

3. Hiranyagarbha as pure consciousness (vasudeva-sattva): S.B. 3.26.18-24.
4. Hiranmaya as  “golden  egg”:  B.  3.26.53.

 

3. Synonyms for bheda-drsya: bhinna drsah (S.B. 3.29.26), bheda-buddhi.
4. More golden  egg:  B.  3.26.51-53.

 

6. B. 6.15.12-15: Panchashikacharya and liberation from the 5 koshas.

 

1. FromSri  Caitanya  Caritamrta:

 

1. Shanta-rasa: C.C. Madhya 19, 183-184 (purport): santa as Paramatma realization.
2. Same as  A:  Madhya  218.
3. Madhya 163-164  describes  13  types  of  munis  and

 

yogis  as  santa-bhaktas.

6. Paramatma-sayuja: C.  Madhya  6.269.

 

• From Dialectical  Spiritualism:

 

1. Page 167: “Original sin means refusing to serve God and attempting instead to become God. Mayavadis, for

 

instance, are still attempting to become God, despite their knowledge and philosophy…The attempt to become God is

the  original  sin,  the  beginning  of  sinful  life.”

 

1. 216: “We are the subordinate living entities. Our perception is limited, and God’s perception is unlimited. It is admitted that everything exists due to God’s perception.”

 

1. FromSri  Brahma  Samhita:

 

5. The choice (from B.S. 5.6, purport): “The sole potency of Krsna which is spiritual, functioning as Krsna’s own proper power, has manifested His pastimes of Goloka

 

or Gokula. By her grace individual souls who are constit-uents of the marginal potency can have admission into even those pastimes. The deluding energy who is of the nature of the perverted reflection of the spiritual (cit) potency, has got her location on the other side of the river Viraja, which surrounds the Brahma-dhama forming the boundary of Maha-Vaikuntha as the outer envelope of Goloka.”

 

5. 8, purport: Shankarshan as Maha-vishnu glances at Maya. From His glance comes the halo of Shambhu, which enshrines the living entities as pradhana (the fundamental material principle, the “dim twilight reflection of the supreme eternal effulgence.” Maya is adhara, the accomodating principle.

 

5. Maha Vishnu in neutral position (in Viraja) between spiritual and material worlds (B.S. 5.10, purport). And pradhana embodies “the substantive principle of all living entities.”

 

5. Appearance of haimany andani (“golden sperms) within the body of Maha-Vishnu: B.S. 5.13.

 

5. S. 5.15: Hiranyagarbha is prime projenitor (different from 4-faced Brahma) from whom Brahma, Shiva and Vishnu (Paramatma) within the universes appear.
6. Yoga-nidra is  Rama-devi:  S.  5.12.

 

5. Second fall-down due to false ego (B.S. 5.16, purport): “Again when in the course of the progressive evolution of the mundane creation each universe is manifested, then in the principle of Shambhu, born of the space between the two eyebrows of Vishnu, there appears the manifestation of the personality of Rudra; yet under all circumstances Shambhu fully enshrines the mundane egoistic principle. The innumerable jivas as spiritual

 

particles emanating from the oversoul in the form of pencils of rays of effulgence, have no relation with the mundane world when they come to know themselves to be the eternal servants of the Supreme Lord. They are then incorporated into the realm of Vaikuntha. But when they desire to lord it over Maya, forgetting their real identity, the egoistic principle Shambhu entering into their entities makes them identify themselves as separated enjoyers of mundane entities. Hence Shambhu is the primary principle of the egoistic mundane universe and of perverted egotism in jivas that identitifies itself with their limited material bodies.”

 

5. All living entities as first merged within Hiranyagarbha (B.S. 5.22, purport): “The four-faced Brahma, the image of self-enjoyment, derives his origin from the prototype Brahma or Hiranyagarbha, the mundane seminal principle, who regards the aggregate of all mundane entities as His own proper body.”

 

5. Quote from B.S. 5.19, purport: “When Krishna desires to manifest something in the mundane ignorance-wrapt af-fairs, He does this by the conjunction of His spiritual

 

potency with His inactive nonspiritual potency. This is known as Yogamaya. It carries a twofold notion, namely, transcendental notion and mundane inert notion. Krishna Himself, His subjective portions and those jivas who are His unalloyed separated particles, realize the transcend-ental notion in that conjuction, while conditioned souls feel the mundane inert notion.”

 

1. From Srila  Prabhupada’s  letters:

 

1. To Harer Nama, 21 Dec. 1968: “Your second question about falling down from the brahmjyoti is answered that

it is not that one must fall down, but that they generally fall down.”

 

1. To Upendra, 27 October 1969: “The conditioned souls are always within the Maha Vishnu Form, whereas the liberated souls in Vaikuntha, they are engaged in the service of the Lord. Constitutionally every living entity, even if he is in the Vaikuntha Loka, has chance of falling down. Therefore the living entity is called marginal energy. But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain…But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy,

 

he cant be eternally conditioned. The Time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned.”

 

1. To Jagadisha, 27 Feb. 1970: “Regarding your question concerning the spirit souls falling into Maya’s influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with Krishna are more likely to fall into nescient activities. Usually anyone who has developed

 

his relationship with Krishna does not fall down in any circumstance, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence.”

 

1. To Bhagavandas, 2 March 1970: “The pradhan is the ingredient part of material energy.”

 

1. To Jagadisha, 25 April 1970: “Regarding your questions about how and from where did the conditioned souls fall, your first question if someone has a relationship with Lord Krishna on Krsna-loka, does he ever fall down? The souls are endowed with minute independence as part of their nature and this minute independence may be utilized rightly or wrongly at any time, so there is always the chance of falling down by misuse of one’s independence. But those who are firmly fixed up in devotional service to Krishna are making proper use of their independence and so they do not fall down.

 

“Regarding your second question, have the conditioned souls ever seen Krishna? Were they with the Lord before being conditioned by the desire to lord it over material nature? Yes, the conditioned souls are parts and parcels of the Lord and thus they were with Krishna before being conditioned. Just as the child must have seen his father because the father places the child in the womb of the mother, similarly each soul has seen Krishna or the Supreme Father. But at that time the conditioned souls are resting in the condition called susupti which is exactly deep sleep without dream, or anethetized state, therefore they do

 

not remember being with Krishna when they wake up in the material world and become engaged in material affairs.”

 

1. Sankarshanas  adi-guru.

 

 

 

 

 

 

—————————————————————————–

 

 

Opening  Arguments  for  2nd  Day  of  Seminar

 

 

1. Introduction

 

1. mac-citta mad  gata  ..tesam  evanukampartham…

 

1. By the grace of the Vaishnavas Ikve made progress in understanding the problem (what was the reasoning behind questions).

 

1. We will  attempt  to  answer  yesterday’s  questions

 

by reviewing the basics in a different way, and then go to some fundamental considerations that are at the bottom of the whole controversy.

 

1. But I  don’t  want  to  get  bogged      Therefore

 

• will be less humble today. I noticed we are reaching a point where the difference is not so much in what we are seeing, but how we’re seeing it – this relative differentiation has no end.

 

1. Arguments for  ayi  nanda-tanuja  ..

 

1. We cannot go for a higher opinion than Lord Chaitanya.

 

1. Is this just Lord Chaitanya’s ecstatic humility as a perfect servant (Srimati Radharani)?

 

1. Yes – but that doesn’t mean it’s not an instruction for us. S.B. 4.29.69.

 

2.Maybe we thought we were brahman only; maybe by all our endeavors of research, speculation, meditation, religiousity or whatever that is all we can realize. But now He has come to tell us – you are a fallen servant of Krishna. This is the ultimate reality.

1. Any objection?

 

• Arguments for  visnu  ..

 

1. He’s always marginal (which means servant), yet again he’s the “bottom end” of visnu-sakti (or swarupa-sakti). That means his proper position is to serve the visnu sakti.

 

1. He doesn not “become” liberated or “become” conditioned (his essential nature doesn’t change – letters). He simply serves one or the other potency.

 

1. Within Maha Vishnu, we have no service except to make that choice, which potency to serve. Therefore, I especially have pointed to that sitation as tatastha.

 

1. Arguementsfor  qualities  of  Lord  and  Servant.

 

1. The living entity is by his nature fully dependent upon the superior qualities of the Lord. Therefore he

is naturally attracted by those qualities. Furthermore, the Lord is attracted by the dependence of the living entity. But as the Lord does not need the living entitiy, as the living entity needs the Lord, the Lord reserves

 

the right to remain aloof should the living entity make an inordinate demand of the Lord.

 

1. What is that inordinate demand? To be the direct controller. (Original sin quote, Dialectical Spiritualism).

 

1. Then why are we made in that way? Is our slight independence like a the tonsils, a vestigal quality that can only become inflamed, and we therefore must remove it? Actually, that slight independence is our “jewel

 

quality” when it is surrendered to Krishna. Hrd Goswami’s class – guhyad-guhyataram (do your duty for me), then sarva-guhyatamam – manmana bhava mad bhakto…

 

That propels the soul to loving relationships even beyond those enjoyed by Narada or even Laxmi. That is proper use of tatastha quality – voluntary surrender. By this one can purchase Krishna.

 

1. So it  is  not  that  we  are  second-class  citizens

 

 

of  the  spiritual  world.    Tatashta  is  a  great  advantage

 

in  winning  Krishna’s  love.

 

1. BrahmanPradhan 

 

1. Susupti is brahman realization – all physical, mental, intellectual and even egoistic conceptions are suspended.

 

1. But Lord and His energy want sleeping soul to wake up. Adi guru (Vishnu, Sesha): Atmaramas ca munayo…

 

1. Those those who are only sleeping (atmaramas who are simply enjoying the self) will awaken to glories of the Lord, and be attracted to serve.

 

1. Those who are pretending to sleep (iswara sayuja, brahma sayuja) will resist. They will fall down – maya shakti will capture them.

 

VII. Arguments for soul’s do not jump into maya: healthy tissue, disease tissue.

 

VIII.  Arguments  for  basis  of  Lord’s  decision.

 

1. So, either by vaisnava aparadha or by the Lord’s desire, one falls down. By the Lord’s desire one may even fall directly down (jaya Vijaya – special case; therefore nobody falls down from Vaikuntha).

 

1. Generally, falldown or crossing the threshold happens within Maha Vishnu (Brahman platform) But even that’s not impersonal, because Vishnu is deciding. Also, brahman is not our origin (jivera swarupa haya; Brahma Samhita; brahmano hi pratisthaham).

 

1. Why aren’t we swarupa-shakti? Swarupa shakti loves Krishna without independence.

 

1. P. said  “wonderful  love  of  Godhead”;  very

 

advanced

 

devotees are “beacons to show the way” (how to surrender, how to use independence in Lord’s service). Mundane example of Gopal Ban. Using independence only to please – it’s

 

not slavery, it’s perfection (way of looking at the same thing).

 

3. So real  question  is,  “Why  am  I  not  perfect?”

 

The answer is, so that we can aspire to become perfect, by surrendering our jewel quality – that’s what captures Krishna’s attention. Even if we fall down, the Lord is

 

so anxious to have us back so that He can enjoy that jewel quality that He displays such wonderful lilas here in material world. We should also remember that it’s not that we must fall down – it’s always a matter of our own choice. Krishna didn’t manifest the jiva with the purpose in mind that he should fall down. Krishna wants to simply enjoy that jewel quality of voluntary surrender.

 

3. That question, “Why am I not perfect?” contains the seed of our material conditioning because it is the seed of Vaishnava aparadha.

 

1. In the beginning, we were with Krishna. We knew He is our Lord. But what about our relationship to His shakti? “One who says he’s My devotee…”

 

1. Basic Krishna consciousness is Vasudeva realization, the Lord alone, without shakti (all shaktis internalized). This jnani-bhakta misras try to understand: bahunam-janmanam ante… They have a problem with shakti; vide Vallabhacarya (tendency to jump over). But they have the chance to develop a proper understand through inquisitive association, therefore of 4 kinds of materially-tinged devotees, they are the highest.

 

c.Yogamaya is also curious about them. “Why are he so interested in the Lord but having difficulties with Me? Maybe he wants to be the Lord (iswara sayuja). Let’s test by offering a shakti for him to control and enjoy.”

 

1. SP is only guru of ISKCON. But does he have shakti or not to create thousands of Bhaktivedantas, or

do  we  say,  “No,  only  that  Bhaktivedanta!”

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