{"id":3996,"date":"2019-06-01T17:09:38","date_gmt":"2019-06-01T21:09:38","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.isvara.org\/archive\/?p=3996"},"modified":"2019-06-02T00:51:35","modified_gmt":"2019-06-02T04:51:35","slug":"three-questions-on-vaisnava-initiation","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.isvara.org\/archive\/three-questions-on-vaisnava-initiation\/","title":{"rendered":"Various questions on initiation"},"content":{"rendered":"

\"\"<\/a><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Questions<\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

Hare Krishna, Maharaja! Please except my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!<\/p>\n

Could you please give an answer to the following question, or rather a few related questions? These questions came up on Russian devotees forum.<\/p>\n

1. Is reinitiation acceptable? If so, in what circumstances.<\/p>\n

2. Is there such a thing as “reinitiation” in the shastras?<\/p>\n

3.What then constitutes initiation: is it Harinam diksha or upanayana?<\/p>\n

Can there be diksha without fire sacrifice, like in the exemple of Krishna and Arjuna at the battle field of Kurukshetra, Arjuna and Krishna excepted each other as Guru\/disciple without any fire sacrifice, or when Narada muni imparted transcendental knowledge to Prahlada Maharaja while he was in his mother’s womb.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

First answer<\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

The verse of Caitanya Caritamrita (Adi-lila 1.35) answers this question:<\/p>\n

mantra-guru \u0101ra yata \u015bik\u1e63\u0101-guru-ga\u1e47a
\nt\u0101\u1e45h\u0101ra cara\u1e47a \u0101ge kariye vandana
\n\u201cI first offer my respectful obeisances at the lotus feet of my initiating spiritual master and all my instructing spiritual masters.\u201d<\/p>\n

Mantra-guru is one, \u015bik\u1e63\u0101-guru-ga\u1e47a is plural. Gana means a group, indicating a number.
\nSrila Prabhupada purport in this verse is crystal clear.
\n\u201cA devotee must have only one initiating spiritual master because in the scriptures acceptance of more than one is always forbidden.
\nThere is no limit, however, to the number of instructing spiritual masters one may accept.\u201d<\/p>\n

Therefore there is no bonafide instances of reinitiation in Vaisnava history.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

But what about if my spiritual master is not spiritually advanced?\u00a0
\nAnswer: Even if the spiritual master (an initiating diksa-guru) has some weakness should not be given up.
\nmarga stho vapy amarga sthah
\n\u201cWhether he is situated on the path or off the path (of devotional service) the (Vaisnava) guru cannot be given up\u201d.
\n(Sanatana Goswami\u2019s purport to Hari-bhakti-vilasa 4.144).<\/p>\n

One could ask: but if my spiritual master falls down and cannot direct me nor inspire me, what should I do. Am I even still connected to the parampara?
\nThe answer is, if your spiritual master falls down, you should accept a siksa-guru. You do not need to take reinitiation. In this way not only you save your spiritual life, but you are connected to the parampara.
\nThose who think that only diksa connects to the parampara do not understand what is Guru Tattva.<\/p>\n

You should remember that Bhaktivinoda Thakura is said to be after Jagannatha Dasa Babaji in our official parampara, who was not his diksa guru. Baladeva Vidyabhusana was not Jagannatha dasa Babaji\u2019s diksa guru, nor Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura Baladeva Vidyabhusana\u2019s diksa guru nor we have any information of Sri Visvanatha taking a formal initiation from Srila Krishna Dasa Babaji Maharaja.
\nAnd so on.
\nMost of our parampara is not on diksa line but on siksa line.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

There is no difference in terms of value between diksa-guru and siksa guru.
\n\u201cThere is no difference between the shelter-giving Supreme Lord and the initiating [diksa] and instructing [siksa] spiritual masters. If one foolishly discriminates between them he commits an offense in the discharge of devotional service\u201d (Caitanya Caritamrita Adi-lila 1.47, purport.)
\n\u201cGuru krsna krpaya paya bhakti lata bija. We have to acquire this energy through the mercy of guru and Krsna. So Krsna is within as caitya-guru, and when we are serious He comes out as the spiritual master. Siksa-guru, diksa-guru. So there is no difference between siksa-guru and diksa-guru and Krishna. Krsna manifests Himself externally as siksa-guru and diksa-guru.\u201d (Nectar of devotion lecture, Vrndavana 10\/29\/72)<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Now we are going to deal with exceptions.<\/span><\/p>\n

Srila Narahari Sarakara Thakura (who was a contemporary of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu and the guru of Locana Dasa Thakura) has written a very nice book called Sri Krishna Bhajanamrita where some exceptions are outlined.<\/p>\n

Without entering too much into the complexities of this theme, a so called Guru should be given up if he becomes adverse to Krishna.
\nHowever Srila Narahari doesn\u2019t say that one should take reinitiation, but only that \u201cand in his place (he should) accept a Krsna conscious spiritual master and worship him.\u201d (verse #65)<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

So in what cases one can take reinitiation?<\/span>
\nSrila Sanatana Gosvami answers:
\navaishnavopadishtena
\nmantrena nirayam vrajet
\npunas ca vidhina samyag
\ngrahayed vaishnavad guroh
\n\u201cOne who is initiated into a mantra by a non-Vaisnava must go to hell. Therefore he should again be initiated properly, according to the prescribed method, by a Vaisnava guru.\u201d
\n(Hari-bhakti-vilasa 4.144, Bhakti Sandarbha and Srimad-Bhagavatam 11.3.48, Purport.)<\/p>\n

In other words, reinitiation is forbidden, but if one has taken initiation from a false, unqualified person, his so-called initiation has no value and one can and should take initiation from a proper Guru.
\nIn this case it is not a reinitiation, but an initiation.<\/p>\n

What means being a non-Vaisnava is another subject matter but certainly someone is not a Vaisnava Guru if while giving initiation is smoking, having illicit sex, eating meat or any other immoral activity.<\/p>\n

This covers your first and second question.<\/em><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Third question<\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

Nama-diksa (what we know as first initition, also called harinama-diksa) and mantra-diksa (what we know as second initiation, also called upanayana) are two different initiations. Initiation means that the Guru gives permission to recite a mantra. In nama-diksa gives the permission to recite the Mahamantra, in the second the Gayatri Mantra.<\/p>\n

We all know that nobody needs permission to chant Hare Krishna but there are no contraddictions between the two statements. It\u2019s a different topic that I am not going to examine here and now.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

For Vaisnavas the main initiation is mantra-diksa (pranava, gayatri mantra), for Gaudiya Vaisnava is nama-diksa because Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu has stressed the importance of chanting Krishna\u2019s name over any other vedic mantra.<\/p>\n

The moment the Guru says yes, I accept you as a disciple, the transcendental link is established, you are his disciple and should behave as such.
\nJust like some time ago there was some talk with a devotee and he was saying that Srila Prabhupada said that Rupa and Sanatana Gosvami were Mahaprabhu\u2019s disciples. That is true, but there is no mention anywhere of a fire sacrifice.
\nSo the fire sacrifice is not compulsory to make the initiation valid.<\/p>\n

However Srila Prabhupada gave much importance to the fire sacrifices and we must accept all instructions from our great Acarya very seriously. Therefore one must take fire ceremony to be fully initiated.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

In conclusion, the concept of initiation is much deeper than we think. Ultimately initiation is not just a fire ceremony but a real spiritual relationship between a Guru and a disciple.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

– Manonatha Dasa (ACBSP)
\n1 June 2019<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

  Questions Hare Krishna, Maharaja! Please except my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada! Could you please give an answer to the following question, or rather a few related questions? These questions came up on … Read More<\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":3,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[3],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-3996","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-english"],"publishpress_future_action":{"enabled":false,"date":"2026-05-30 10:11:52","action":"change-status","newStatus":"draft","terms":[],"taxonomy":"category","extraData":[]},"publishpress_future_workflow_manual_trigger":{"enabledWorkflows":[]},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.isvara.org\/archive\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/3996","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.isvara.org\/archive\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.isvara.org\/archive\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.isvara.org\/archive\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/3"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.isvara.org\/archive\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=3996"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.isvara.org\/archive\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/3996\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.isvara.org\/archive\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=3996"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.isvara.org\/archive\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=3996"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.isvara.org\/archive\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=3996"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}